V6 Custom Turbo Buildup [Archive]

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Jet Black

07-19-2005, 03:20 PM

PHASE 1 -> COMPLETED!!!!
PHASE 2 -> ...very slowly coming along

Phase #1: Parts Collection
I started off with my turbo project as a simple inquiry into what a single turbo setup would look like on the 6G72 (namely the exhaust portion). Well in the thread, a picture surfaced of a pre-built turbo exhaust manifold, that was on sale. The manifold bolted up to the stock manifolds and could bolt on a T3-style turbine (rectangular 4 bolt flange). It also included a 38mm wastegate opening before the turbo itself.

Well I bought it. And that started me off on my turbo adventure (along with a lot information that has suddenly surfaced regarding turbocharging the SOHC 6G72).

June 17th 2005,
I have now accumilated a number of essential parts. First off I bought an emanage with support tools (still need to buy the injector harness). I also bought the turbo itself, alongside 6 reconditioned 360cc injectors. Now for more detail on the parts themselves:
Turbocharger: T3 .48/.40 ~ This turbo is VERY VERY small (especially when you consider the engine its going into). The turbo I bought looks like its in pretty poor condition, though I dont mind since I only need it for a short while. It probably came off an older domestic (2-2.2 liter engine ~ now you see how small this turbo is compared to my engine), and needs to be rebuilt. I bought it for $70 w/$20 shipping.
Emanage: Bought the main unit, and ?Support Tools? which allows you to connect the piggyback into your laptop. Total came to $380.
June 23nd 2005,
Injectors: 360cc low-impedance injectors from a 3000GT VR4. These injectors are reconditioned and flow tested. They cost $40 per injectors (which is an AMAZING deal, since brand new they are $1500 from the dealership, thats right ONE-FIVE-ZERO-ZERO). They come with brand new gromets and o-rings (this is important, as your not supposed to reuse old gromets and o-rings). The fact that their flow tested means a lot! Having injectors all flow the same amount is ALWAYS beneficial. I bought the 360cc from a 3kGT is because of several reasons: 1) They are a direct replacment to our stock injectors 2) They cost a whole lot less than new injectors from places like RC Engineering (who charge $80 per) 3) I dont plan on pushing a whole lot of boost, and dont need anything bigger (like 440cc). Now it should be noted that, the injectors from a VR4 are LOW-IMPIDENCE, where as the injectors in our cars are HIGH-IMPIDENCE. Basicly you will need to purhcase a ?resistor pack? for a VR4 to make them work properly. More on this later. I bought these injectors from: http://injectors4u.com ('http://injectors4u.com')
June 27nd 2005,
PocketLogger: This little device is will allow you to read real-time data directly from your ECU, using a simple PDA. It will display vital data such as knock, narrowband Air/Fuel ratio(AFR), O2, Exhaust Gas Temprature (EGT), Karman freq (aka your MAF values), MAP stuff, ect ect. This is basicly a necessity, and combined with the Emanage, makes for a powerful tunning package (short of a stand-alone).
July 06 2005,
Finished installing the Emanage. Now my AC doesnt work...in the middle of summer, in SoCal.
July 11 2005,
edit: I did NOT win the auction for the crazy-ricer sized turbo. Good thing too. My "small-turbos rock" state of mind is back.
September 8 2005,
Since the last time I updated this little journal, I've bought quite a few stuff. Though looking back, I shouldn't have gotten the T3 that I did. If anything too big may have been a better idea than too small. Either way, with such a tiny turbo, I'm facing high-ass egts.
Well its time to go turbo shopping again. It's funny, this is the part of the build up that I love the most, though in this case it straight up blows ass since I wont be able to finish my turbo project by end of this month (the timeline I had given myself).
Either way, considering how many parts I already have in my possesion, a new turbo + downpipe and I should be set. That is unless more shit comes up...which I'm sure it will.
edit: Later on in the day... The turbo project is going on hold for the time being. Considering the ramifications of using a new turbo altogether, I don't see this finishing up anytime soon (I project around December at earliest). Instead I will be diverting all my funds to getting the car too look nice again. Most of you probably don't know but my car is in terrible condition. I have a massive dent in my rear quarter panel, as well as a major paint problem (oxidation > pwns the fuck out of > Shitsubishi Kapalana X13 black, model years 99-01).
October 6 2005 ~ !day after my bday!,
I hereby declare an end to all major operations in the "parts collection" segment of this project. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif Ladies and gentlemen, I have bought all the "parts" I need. Some of you may have noticed that I havn't bougt the downpipe yet. Since I can't buy one from Tearstone (don't blame em, its a major part of his kit), I will have to get one custom made. The problem is that, in order to get it custom made the turbo kit will have to be installed to begin with.
January 22 2006
Work has started again. After 3 months of dead-time, Peano helped me find my motivation to finish this project.

This week I practiced welding on Peano's dp. The welds look TERRIBLE, but neverless they are VERY strong (the metal bends AROUND the welded area). Some pics:
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/8876/dp21dh.th.jpg ('http://img461.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dp21dh.jpg')
Next week hopefuly we will start working on my dp.

Phase #2: Fitting & Installation
March 19 2006
HOLY CRAP its been a while since I've update this. Well let me start off by saying that metal fabrication is NOT easy...but its VERY fun https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif. We started off in Feburary by installing the turbo collector pipes:
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8379/dsc006435lz.th.jpg ('http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc006435lz.jpg')
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8270/dsc006447zx.th.jpg ('http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc006447zx.jpg')
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/3403/dsc006334om.th.jpg ('http://img466.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc006334om.jpg')
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1377/dsc006345pk.th.jpg ('http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc006345pk.jpg')
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/249/dsc006358lp.th.jpg ('http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc006358lp.jpg')
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1030/dsc006363kb.th.jpg ('http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc006363kb.jpg')
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9425/dsc006383qg.th.jpg ('http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc006383qg.jpg')
Now this is where we ran into a major problem:
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9938/dsc006408mm.th.jpg ('http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc006408mm.jpg')
With virtually no room between the aluminum radiator fins, and the turbo exhaust manifold, this meant nothing but trouble in the future. Manifolds get hot enough to glow white...Aluminum melts at 1220*F (much less than what the manifold is bound to see). Also in the event that I "floor" it, and then suddenly let off the gas, the engine will buck foward, send the turbo into the radiator.

So with that, Peano and I set about to modify the orignal piping so that I wouldn't destroy my radiator. A month later work we finished "modding" the pipes. When we clean them up, I'll go into detail as to what we had to do to make them fit.

Yesterday Peano and I actually did begin work on the dp. Here is our progress so far, it may not look like much but dammit it took us quite a few hours of "measuring twice, welding once" to get here:
This is the basic setup of how the DP will sit (the red piping is an aluminum intake piping we used for the mock up...I plan to get some straight steel piping this week):
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/6299/13ou1.th.jpg ('http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=13ou1.jpg')
This is how the turbo currently sits (doesn't look like its moved much, but in fact theres quite a bit of room now):
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9688/38sm.th.jpg ('http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=38sm.jpg')
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/1687/44yr.th.jpg ('http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=44yr.jpg')
Some random shot of my full exhaust (look very closely and you can barely see where we cut into the rear flange to remove the stubborn stud ~ the other stud is still in their https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/8458/exhaust8dj.th.gif ('http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exhaust8dj.gif')
And finally PROGRESS (the first piece of the DP was the most critical as we couldn't afford any room for error):
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/436/29zg1.th.jpg ('http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29zg1.jpg')
A test fit of the FMIC:
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1420/fmic19cj.th.jpg ('http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fmic19cj.jpg')
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8351/fmic23zd.th.jpg ('http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fmic23zd.jpg')
Differences between the 99' 8G, and the 00+ 3Gs bumpers:
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/5053/bumperdiff4ow.th.gif ('http://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bumperdiff4ow.gif')
^ For some reason certain year 8Gs come with a "bumper dampener" (#8 ). Not really sure if its all that useful as its not found on the other years. Either way, it will have to go in order to make room for a fan.
***
Just discovered even more differances with the fronts of our cars. Heres a pic of a bumper-less 3G, compare it with the above pic. You might notice that the 8Gs come with extra "reinforcement" in front of the condesnsor (around the hood latch).
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/8067/3gwithoutbumper38ky.th.gif ('http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3gwithoutbumper38ky.gif')
Progress...
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1971/t25mu.th.jpg ('http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t25mu.jpg')
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9659/t344428ou.th.jpg ('http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t344428ou.jpg')
Just needs a little bit more modification and I'll finally be set. Next up is the downpipe.
06-05-06
Modification of original turbo manifolds is FINALLY 100% complete. Required no less than 12 tries to finally get it right. Each time it consisted of cutting, welding, testing, and repeating. Ended up with manifolds that have no less than 7 pieces of "new" metal in them. This is how it finally sits:
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4586/final17gx.th.jpg ('http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=final17gx.jpg')
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/985/final22ax.th.jpg ('http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=final22ax.jpg')
06-12-06
Finally complete the downpipe. Now I just need to attach it to the rest of the exhaust. Since I will be diverting all funds to fabricating the FMIC piping, I will not have enough 3" pipe/money to make a full 3" exhaust just yet. For the time being I will be attaching the dp to the stock exhaust (directly after where the main cat would sit).
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/486/hotside16iq.th.jpg ('http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hotside16iq.jpg')
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/2705/hotside151op.th.jpg ('http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hotside151op.jpg')
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/3731/hotside28wf.th.jpg ('http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hotside28wf.jpg')
Heres a quick shot of what the pre-turbo piping will probably end up looking like:
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/3396/coldsideplumbing0nr.th.jpg ('http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coldsideplumbing0nr.jpg')

Parts already bought:
1.) Turbo exhaust manifolds ('https://www.thegalantcenter.org/viewtopic.php?t=39644') ~ <span style='color:red'>450</span>
2.) Greddy Emanage w/support tools ~ <span style='color:red'>300</span>
3.) Tranny Cooler ~ <span style='color:red'>20</span>
4.) 6 x 360cc injectors: BDL360 ('http://injectors4u.com/injector_prices.htm') ~ <span style='color:red'>240</span>
5.) PocketLogger w/PDA harness ('http://www.digitaltuning.com/index.php?pid=plobdii') ~ <span style='color:red'>160</span>
6.) Johnnyracecar FMIC ~ <span style='color:red'>215</span>
7.) 6 x 10watt/5.6 ohm Resistors ('http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=004-5.6') ~ <span style='color:red'>16</span>
8.) 6 x Spark Plugs ('http://www.importpoweronline.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=32_35_362_364') ~ <span style='color:red'>16</span>
9.) Stock Mk4 Supra BOV ('http://store.titanmotorsports.com/stbovsutwtu.html') ~ <span style='color:red'>41</span>
10.) Cone Filter ~ <span style='color:red'>40</span>
11.) EGT/Boost Guage ~ <span style='color:red'>60</span>
12.) BOV adapter pipe x2 ~ <span style='color:red'>70</span>
13.) Oil Feed/Return lines ~ <span style='color:red'>100</span>
14.) EGT "Type K" Sensor ~ <span style='color:red'>40</span>
15.) Walbro 190 lph pump ~ <span style='color:red'>120</span>
16.) Garrett 60-1 T4 ~ <span style='color:red'>440</span>
17.) O2 Sims (2 or 3) ('http://www.club3g.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22345') ~ <span style='color:red'>50</span>
18.) Tial 38mm Wastegate ('http://www.hpautoworks.com/') ~ <span style='color:red'>230</span>
19.) T4/Tial Flanges/Gaskets ('http://www.hpautoworks.com/') ~ <span style='color:red'>20</span>
------------------Total-Cost----------------------------
<span style='color:red'>2628</span>

Parts Needing to be bought:
1.) Oil Pressure Gauge
3.) Flexible Heat Tubing/Radiator Tubing (2.5") + Couplers ('http://www.mcmaster.com')
4.) Heat Wrap ('http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=exhaust+heat+wrap&btnG=Search+Froogle')
5.) Piping ('http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2006254/showCustom-0/p-2006254/N-111+10214+600010826/c-10114')
6.) Anti-leaking white silicon wrap??? (i.e. the shit they use to screw plumbing pipes together).

(1) 1/8 BSPT to 1/8 NPT fitting
(1) 1/8 NPT female tee fitting
(1) 1/8 NPT to 3an flare ...do I even need this shit? Probably not, though it might be a good idea to keep it around...

Misc. Parts Needed:
* TT VR4 calipers
> Mounting bracket ('http://www.electronicauto.com/products/2gttbrakeconversion/brackets.htm')
* Need Tranny Flush
* Electronic Boost Controller
* Boost Timer
* SS Brake lines ('http://www.roadraceengineering.com/3gbrakes.htm')

Tips:
* DO NOT make an open dump with ribbed tubing ('http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181920').
*To adjust brake play, read Service Manual # 35A-17
Installing Emanage
*Remove the AC/Heater unit altogether. This is basicly needed to be done in order to easily access the wires.
*UNDERSTAND the directions FIRST before you start cutting :roll:. Make sure the colors of the wires correspond with the correct pin position. Rember the above diagrams ARE correct (except for the below exception).
*Wire/Pin 78 (aka C8 in the neweclipse.org API instructions) is brown in my 99 Galant. Might be the same for you.
*EGT sensor gets tapped into the center front bank runner, 1 inch from the block
*Rear O2 sensor bung needs to be relocated to the turbo manifold (from pre-cat)
*I've just been looking at the first few posts of this thead and the pics.
That said, these arn't even intercoolers for gas engines! The end tanks in all of these are total junk! You need a smooth wide bend in any piping. Other things i see is people talking about making 25psi and seeing 15psi...this is what happens when you have too small of a intercooler, not to big. This is called pressure loss, it's because of retarded end tank design like the ones shown in the first lew posts. It is not because of core size, core size will affect what is referred to as lag...LAG is NOT how long it takes for your turbo to spool (that's called "boost threshold"). Lag is responce time from input of throttle to power change...or "result of input" My next point is that that very last part of the size and fitment problem is the cores deepth...deepth should be kept small...air that is traveling twice as far is being cooled only 25% more. This means average temp is higher and you have made an interheater...only ford and subaru are allowed to make those. ~ Grey Wolf @ Tristarion forums

Random Tuning Info:

Q: Does the AFX have an analog output?

A: Yes, t he AFX has a 0 ~ 5V, linear analog output for AFR that can be used as an input to an engine controller or data acquisition system. The analog output signal wire is yellow and is attached to terminal position 3 of the connector that plugs into the controller. The analog output ground wire is brown and is attached to terminal position 4 of the same connector. The output wires are each 12" long and are hidden inside the mesh sleeve. To access the wires, gently pull them out of the sleeve. An output of 0V means 9.00:1 AFR and an output of 5V means 16.00:1 AFR. When the sensor is in air, the analog output will be pinned at 5V (since the AFR of air is infinity).

Mathematically: AFR = 1.4 x Vout + 9 .
~NGK AFX ('http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/air-fuel/faq.asp?nav=19100&country=us')
^In relation to hooking up a Wideband O2 directly into the Emanage ('http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=187913')(w/out expensive controller).

So, from what I have learned its better to run slightly richer and run max timing advance (that gives you most power) vs to run slightly leaner and not run the same amount of advance. The second, senario gives you less power?

I can understand why you would want to advance timing even more the higher your rpms went, given all else constant. If the pistons are moving at a higher rate and if the rate of combustion in the engine cylinder is constant you would want the fuel to ignite earlier to sorta finish its burn cycle as the piston hits TDC (on its way up, correct?). Since the pistons are traveling fasters at higher rpms you have to start the ignition earlier to finish at the same time.
Great Thread ('http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=144167')

* The ecu pulls ~.35 degrees of timing advance for every count of knock, so you can say that for every 3 counts of knock the ecu pulls 1 degree of timing DSMTuners ('http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187708')
* Extensive testing with laboratory quality instrumentation on aircraft engines universally indicates that best power is NEVER made at AFRs richer than 12 to 1. Simple Digital Systems ('http://www.sdsefi.com/techegt.htm')
* If it's switching above 100% it's showing lean, and if it's switching below 100% you are running rich. PocketLogger FAQ ('http://hywell.org/plhelp/data.html')
* Retarding the ignition timing will generally raise the EGT at the same AFRTuning with EGT ('http://www.sdsefi.com/techegt.htm')
* You can tell when your car's stock ECU is seeing knock with the ECU+ by looking at timing advance at WOT. Generally, timing increases at WOT, but when the stock ECU hears knock, it'll drastically retard timing and you'll see the timing retard in your current ECU+ logs. ECU+ ('http://www.ecuplus.com/faq.htm#5-ans')
* To see timing in action (in relation to knock), tap the manifold with a rachet. That should produce the right freq to see timing being pulled.
* Speed-Density (aka MAP) vs MAF/MAS in relation to the new Emanage Ultimate: "and being speed density you don't have to worry about the tune drifting according to weather conditions like you would if you were to install it with a mas." 3SI.org ('http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=282024&page=2')
* Detonation will actually cause EGTs to drop. This behavior has fooled a lot of people because they will watch the EGT and think that it is in a low enough range to be safe, the only reason it is low is because the engine is detonating...Any drop from normal EGT should be reason for concern. 3SI.org ('http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=281822')

<span style='font-size:25pt;line-height:100%'>
LINKS</span>

General:
<span style='color:darkblue'>Stealth 316</span> < VERY critical site if your trying to piece together your own turbo kit.
Grape Ape Racing Technical Articals (http://www.stealth316.com)
3SI Forums ('http://www.3si.org/forums/index.php')?
Water Injection Forums ('http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=10')
Club3G ('http://www.club3g.com')
Club3G Florida ('http://www.club3gfl.com')
Home Made Turbo ('http://www.homemadeturbo.com')
DSM Tuners ('http://www.dsmtuners.com') < they have a fairly good tuning section
Detonation vs Pre-ignition ('http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=281822')
Water Injection FAQ (great read) ('http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html')
Wideband O2 FAQ ('http://www.forparts.com/BoswidebandO2.htm')
[u]Tuning: eManage
API Wiring guide ('http://www.eclipseforums.org/fortopic149679.html')
Club3G Wiring diagrams ('http://www.club3g.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27116&highlight=emanage')
Emanage FAQ ('http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/EmanageFAQ.txt')
Tuning: SAFCII
SAFCII Install ('http://www.team3s.com/SAFC2WiringDiagram.htm')
RRE Tuning Info ('http://www.roadraceengineering.com/newafc.htm')
SAFCII Tuning #2 ('http://www.team3s.com/FAQ-AFCtuning.htm')
General ECU+PocketLogger:
PocketLogger for Dummies ('http://hywell.org/plhelp/data.html')
Tuning Links ('http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=142333')
ECU Info ('http://members.shaw.ca/costall/ECUprimer/index.html')
General Tuning Info ('http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=262353')
Closed Loop operation ('http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=254217')
Fuel:
Injectors for sale ('http://injectors4u.com')
Fuel Injectors Info ('http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/fuelinjectorguide.htm')
Fuel Injectors Worksheet ('http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/fuelinjectors.htm')(helps to figure out how big of injectors you want )
Tuning with EGT ('http://www.sdsefi.com/techegt.htm')
Recommended Retailers:
HPAutoWorks ('http://www.hpautoworks.com/') < Excellent service, and variety. Heck they even overnighted the damn package for free!

peanotation

07-19-2005, 04:32 PM

man my pussy is dripping just at the thought of this thing tearing up the road

SinSere

07-19-2005, 05:05 PM

Lots of good info in there. I really hope this turns out well for you as I know you have put a lot of time into trying something different. Being a V6 owner myself, I am very interested in what kinds of gains you'll get after its all said and done. I think a small turbo is the way to go honestly. Keep us posted on your progress and I'll keep checkin this thread for updates. I'll probably check out some of the links as well to gain some basic knowledge. thanks

Jet Black

07-19-2005, 06:13 PM

man my pussy is dripping just at the thought of this thing tearing up the road

Haha, I wont be tearing up anything with my auto. With my 225/40 I can barely chirp my tires. Taking into account turbo lag and all that, I dont think anything will change. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

Lots of good info in there. I really hope this turns out well for you as I know you have put a lot of time into trying something different. Being a V6 owner myself, I am very interested in what kinds of gains you'll get after its all said and done. I think a small turbo is the way to go honestly. Keep us posted on your progress and I'll keep checkin this thread for updates. I'll probably check out some of the links as well to gain some basic knowledge. thanks

Thanks the for the support bro. Ya Im was sick of loosing to other slow cars, so after watching Peano transform his car from a loose vagina to a 12" cock, I decided i would take stab at it (actually I wasnt even planning on going turbo till I found the xtech manifolds on sale). Haha I remeber when Peano had the double decker wing and everything. Now his car is a highway monster.

Ya just about the ONLY reason to go bigger is to be able to bump the boost up. Other than that, getting a larger turbo and running it at the same psi is pretty useless. Afaik, it can even be counter-productive in that you loose some area under the curve (boost comes later), and your EGTs may rise (running the turbo UNDER its effeciency range). Considering I do not plan to ever take my car past 300whp, I dont see a big turbo being all that beneficial.

BUT the ricer side of me (albeit small) wants to go big just for the lag. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

Also those links are basicly what got me started. EVerything I know mostly came from those links (as well as convos with the turbo guys like Peano and Leicoolya ~ in fact Im may post portions of the convo with Peano since it helped me to understand a few things really well).

brandon

07-20-2005, 07:13 AM

qnz

07-20-2005, 07:44 AM

aww. no fmic?

Jet Black

07-20-2005, 10:21 AM

jusmills

07-20-2005, 11:09 AM

I was going to say, you could always go with a side mount...didn't someone have a pic of one installed on an 8G here...but you said that you don't want to deal with the piping issue...Won't you have to keep really close tabs on water level if you go with water Injection, like on longer trips you'd have to stop to fill up with water?

brandon

07-20-2005, 11:10 AM

Boost gauge ran about $60, EGT w/probe was like $120, and FP should run you about $60-$75... all on ebay of course. :wink:

DOHCstunr

07-20-2005, 11:12 AM

i would harly consider intercooler piping a nightmare. anyways, you would have to make charge pipes anyways for the turbo to the throttle body. so whats a few extra bends in the name of reliability and performance?

seth98esT

07-20-2005, 11:12 AM

Sounds like you're on your way. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

Some of those cost estimates on the "to buy" list seem a tad low though. I wish I could have gotten my gauges and resistor pack for that cheap!

Ya I havnt really figured out how much gauges will comes to. Though the resistor pack estimate is actually over by 3 dollars. Im not purchasing the whole pack itself; im just buying the individual resistors.

aww. no fmic?

Dont need one since Im going with water injection. I really dont want to deal with the nightmare of IC piping (nor do I want to have to cut away at my bumper).
Pft took me only a few hours to make my piping. And only had to cut an inch or so out of the back of my bumper! FMIC would be way more reliable. Even with water injection, you still have to make a pipe to go from the turbo to the intake manifold which would be about the same length as any FMIC piping.

Just food for thought.

brandon

07-20-2005, 12:29 PM

Plus FMICs = sex...

Jet Black

07-20-2005, 12:31 PM

Guys thanks for the replys. I will do just about anything to save money. The plans to go water injection were from an early draft (I havnt really paid too much attention to the whole cooling aspect up till now). I guess its time to do a bit of research into some ICs. On a side note, I wonder if an 1st gen side mount would work for me (or even a Supra sm).

edit: Looks like I can grab a 1st gen SMIC for a whole lot less (around $50). Compound that with the fact I will at first use flexible exhaust tubing, makes for a whole lot of money saved (close to $200).

brandon

07-20-2005, 12:42 PM

Jet Black

07-20-2005, 01:14 PM

edit: Looks like I can grab a 1st gen SMIC for a whole lot less (around $50). Compound that with the fact I will at first use flexible exhaust tubing, makes for a whole lot of money saved (close to $200).

Now you're talkin... I spent about $100 for my SMIC setup, everything included (minus the BOV). You can also use coolant hose (flexible or just find the right bends) instead of flex exhaust tubing.

Yep, the coolant hosing looks good as well. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

Ok now Im thinking about my guages. Between the emanage and the datalogger I got a huge amount data already logged. I plan on getting the MSD Knock sensor. While it may tend to pick up a lot of ambient noise, it seems to be able to pick up knock 100% of the time. For gauges I think I will grab boost, & oil + fuel pressure. Not sure what else I would need (I dont think I will be getting a WB02).

peanotation

07-20-2005, 02:00 PM

i dont think a fuel gauge is needed untill you start fucking with the fuel pressure (i.e. afpr). oil pressure is something i really need to get though. if you're not gonna get a wideband then i think an egt gauge would be good to be your last warning gauge if shit goes downhill. you can also see when the motor is getting grumpy and needs a short boost break.

seth98esT

07-20-2005, 02:20 PM

My FMIC was $300 shipped and IC piping was $100 + couplers/tbolt clamps. Just order the bends you think you will need and either have a shop weld them together(cheaper) or buy couplers which are prone to blowing off w/o a beaded pipe.

Gauges. Boost is a must, EGT is a good warning gauge as well. Only other gauge you might want is an oil temp/pressure gauge. You dont really need a fuel pressure gauge as you wont have an AFPR to change the pressure if you wanted(unless you were planning to buy one).

You can get cheap FMICS at www.johnyracecar.com. Dont get an SMIC, you will regret it...

qnz

07-20-2005, 07:14 PM

peanotation

07-20-2005, 09:57 PM

if youre gonna do something, why not do it "right" the first time.

haha, well if we were gonna do it RIGHT, i think he'd be getting a spearco front mount

Jet Black

08-10-2005, 10:27 AM

Update update:

I just went on a crazy shopping spree and picked up a bunch of stuff. Now I have about $300 worth of parts to aquire before Im finished. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

Ohhh boy, its getting exciting now.

ChikagoGTZ

09-01-2005, 09:57 AM

Man, I still think you need a larger turbo than that.....40trim isn't going to hit the sweet spot at all. If you're only planning on max of 7psi, then you should be ok....but any higher and your turbo rpm is going to be over 140,000. and you'll be at 50% efficiency....

Read this to figure everything out... http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html ('http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html')

Jet Black

09-01-2005, 12:18 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChikagoGTZ)</div><div class='quotemain'>Man, I still think you need a larger turbo than that.....40trim isn't going to hit the sweet spot at all. Â*If you're only planning on max of 7psi, then you should be ok....but any higher and your turbo rpm is going to be over 140,000. and you'll be at 50% efficiency....

Read this to figure everything out...http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html</div>

I know this turbo is undersized, but taking into consideration that others with similiar sized specs have hit between 290-320 whp, i think im good for around 250 (Tearstone's earlier kits used a .48/.63 combo, though the wheels on both ends were a bit larger).

And yes I know how to read a compressor map. Either way, just looking at the physical dimensions of a 14b, you could fit a 14b into a T3. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

Agent|THC

10-01-2005, 03:37 AM

We want more info! https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif Update please!! https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

Jet Black

10-01-2005, 11:28 AM

Nothing much to update. I got a new turbo (straight T4) in face of the fact that the old one's turbine portion was to small.

I'm down to three components:
1) Wastegate
2) Exhaust piping
3) Hoses/clamps/hardware

theblackpearl

10-06-2005, 02:59 AM

wow man this is gettin me excited...i hope its all done by the december meet..that way i can check it out...

Jet Black

10-06-2005, 03:31 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(theblackpearl)</div><div class='quotemain'>wow man this is gettin me excited...i hope its all done by the december meet..that way i can check it out...</div>

Well I ordered the wastegate.

So now I just need the piping done.

Phil

01-03-2006, 07:15 PM

hey man any update??

Jet Black

01-22-2006, 11:01 PM

hey man any update??

Hey man, in so far only that has changed is that I can sorta weld now. Hopefuly next week, Peano and I will be able to install the turbo. I'm guesstimating atleast another month before I can start her up.

Though I will keep this thread more up-to-date as I've come to the edge of finishing (...sounds familiar...i know).

DryBear

01-23-2006, 01:40 AM

Good luck bro! Noticed your new sig 8)

theblackpearl

01-23-2006, 02:46 AM

GET R DONE!!!!!!!

Sillyasianz

01-23-2006, 04:01 AM

man, im scared. If I see you on the road im pulling over or exiting. This guy drives like a mad man, imagine w/ a turbo setup! Good luck and GOD help us all....

Jet Black

01-23-2006, 11:58 AM

Thanks for the support you guys. Means a lot.

Haha don't worry, I don't plan on going too crazy with her till shes tuned. I'll be fine.

...just as long as I don't have to measure the jumping distance of my G on the freeway. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

Phil

02-25-2006, 06:56 AM

get-r-done

how is everything coming along?

The reason I keep asking is because I am doing my turbo kit the same way as yourself. I'm an ebay freak!!

Jet Black

03-04-2006, 03:38 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Phil)</div><div class='quotemain'>get-r-done

how is everything coming along?

The reason I keep asking is because I am doing my turbo kit the same way as yourself. Â*I'm an ebay freak!!</div>

Well so far, Peano and I have succesfuly modified the original xtech pipes so that the turbo won't smash into the condenser.

Now that we have final placement of the pipes set, we can begin the real work on the downpipe (last major piece required).

Honestly, we been working at this for the last 1 month or so. And everytime we start work, the first several hours are taken up by trying to drop the exhaust piping. See the problem is that Mitsubishi was smoking some mad crack when they decided to use these crazy fucking studs.

Last week, it took Peano and I, THREE hours to remove a single exhaust stud (out of a grand total of TWO studs that would not move). We first started by trying to wrench it out. This was met with the realization that the nut was working itself off the stud (it was literally smoothing out the threads of the stud). So we were left with a seemingly immovable stud with no thread left. We then decided to weld the nut onto the stud itself. After doing that, the nut and stud broke clean off as one piece. We decided that it would be easier to remove the stud if we could atleast drop the whole exhaust.

This we did. Now with the exhaust on the floor, and two studs that NEEDED to be removed we got to work.

No joke: three drill bits, several saws, some flux core welding wire, and about 2 hours later, we got atleast one the bolts off (we figured this was enough to atleast keep the exhaust together when it came time to put it back together).

After all this, we spent about 30 minutes doing actual work for the turbo. We modified the turbo pipes by cutting, bending, and rewelding them back together (around this time Peano discovers that he has a natural ability to weld ~ for a first time welder, his welds were 20x better than mine).

By the end of all this, we didn't have a whole lot of energy left. So we put everything back together and called it a day.

Hopefuly next week we can really begin work on the dp. Though I do still need to collect a few more things. Namely some straight 3" steel piping, an exhaust flange, and some flexible mesh tubing.

Word of advice: The first time you drop your exhaust, REPLACE THE POS STUDS/NUTS WITH BOLTS/NUTS. This will save you A LOT OF TIME.

Just to be clear, a good 80-90% of the time we have been working on this "turbo project", has been solely dedicated to removing the exhaust. This is the reason that for all the time we've put in, we have done very little.

Fuck mitusibishi hardware.

Phil

03-04-2006, 04:15 PM

awesome. good to hear man keep all of us updated.

DryBear

03-04-2006, 04:33 PM

Damn, you are the welding studs!

Sorry to hear you had so much trouble wrangling off the exhaust. Did you drop the whole exhaust from the exhaust manifold to the cat? Are you going to go custom catback?

How much longer you think till Booooooooooooost!?

Jet Black

03-04-2006, 07:05 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wanderingpinoy)</div><div class='quotemain'>Damn, you are the welding studs!

Sorry to hear you had so much trouble wrangling off the exhaust. Did you drop the whole exhaust from the exhaust manifold to the cat? Are you going to go custom catback?

How much longer you think till Booooooooooooost!?</div>

We dropped the exhaust from the precats (kept the manifolds on), all the way to the main cat. Sorta like this:

|x|_|x|___{xxx}___

Ya it seems that every single project I ever undertake with this car is an uphill battle. Be it the struts that I had to dremel off, or the tranny studs that required similiar treatment, nothing is easy on this car.

As for when I finish, I hope to god its before this next meet. I really want to line up with you guys. :twisted:

Phil

03-18-2006, 06:57 PM

Hey Jet can you give me an idea where you got your turbo piping from. I was looking through your first post but didn't see anything. Thanks man!!!

Jet Black

03-18-2006, 08:37 PM

Hey Jet can you give me an idea where you got your turbo piping from. I was looking through your first post but didn't see anything. Thanks man!!!

Phil, I purchased the turbo manifolds off a Club3g member. Though I believe that RPW still makes them as well.

Goto Visionimports.com ('http://www.Visionimports.com') > Mitsubishi Eclipse 00+ > Exhaust Components > Turbo Manifolds

Quick link...
http://visionimports.com/eclipse00_turbomanifold.html ('http://visionimports.com/eclipse00_turbomanifold.html')

I havn't heard of anyone purchasing these yet. And for that matter RPW is notorious for a VERY long delivery time. Also you could talk to Tearstone, though I wouldn't get my hopes up as I doubt he has any spares to sell (I believe most of his parts are being used for his kits).

Good luck man.

Phil

03-19-2006, 01:58 AM

Thanks for all your help man. I hope u don't mind me stealing/borrowing your idea for my sig.

Phil

Jet Black

03-19-2006, 12:27 PM

No problem dude. Good luck.

seth98esT

03-19-2006, 12:58 PM

I updated my sig too. Soon you will have to add this feature to your sig as well https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif

Phil

03-19-2006, 07:20 PM

oh i hope not but I know it will happen.

Jet Black

03-19-2006, 07:51 PM

lol hey guys, heres the original code:

[size=9][url=http://www.thegalantcenter.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38488] [color=red]V6 Custom Turbo Build[/color] [i]01-22-06[/i][/url]

[b][u]Parts:[/u][/b] Â* Â* Â*

[||||||||||]

[b][u]Install:[/u][/b] Â* Â*

[|||-------]

[b][u]Tuning:[/u][/b] Â* Â*

[----------][/size]

Phil

03-21-2006, 06:12 PM

thanks!!! lol

Donovan

03-26-2006, 04:39 PM

Jet Black I found this post by accident but hell I Started reading..lol
What type of HP are you expected to get?

Jet Black

03-28-2006, 12:57 PM

Donovan

03-28-2006, 01:05 PM

Dominicano

03-28-2006, 01:09 PM

Jet Black I found this post by accident but hell I Started reading..lol
What type of HP are you expected to get?

Honestly I have no clue. Drybear made 222 with a T3/T4 combo, though my turbo is quite a bit larger. So maybe 240 with proper tuning?

Damn..fa sho I hope more than 222...
specially witha v6 ..

remeber to the wheel the v6 only pushes like 160 so going to 222 is pretty good thats a 60+ increase.

DryBear

03-28-2006, 02:06 PM

Also remember, that the weak point in our V6 engine is the pistons, and without putting in stronger pistons, we can only safely go up to 8PSI - my dyno run was at 6PSI with a stock catback at base tune, so I also could probably eek out a few more HP with a better tune. Still, she does pull pretty hard :twisted:

Nice progress guys!

Are you going to go for a slimline fan, or do you have enough clearance for the stock fan with the controller relocated?

Where is the air filter going to sit? Have you figured out your intercooler piping yet?

BTW, I'd suggest installing the tranny cooler *now* so you won't have to removing the piping later to get at the stock tranny cooler lines. :oops: Unless of cource you still plan to go manual...

Donovan

03-28-2006, 02:21 PM

Jet Black

03-28-2006, 03:26 PM

Ahh ok, I thought those numbers were a tad low. 8 psi and you should be right on top of 240. Possibly even up to 260 with an excellent tune, and a full 3". :twisted:

Well I'm going to be ordering a slimline with my next paycheck. As it is, even with the extra clearance we were able to scavange, I don't think the stock fan would work (stocker is HUGE).

As for the air filter, its probably going to sit right behind the drivers side headlight. Right around that area were theirs just empty space. (compressor > bov recirc pipe > maf > filter)

lol we havn't even began to think about the FMIC piping. Though I do plan to go the ghetto way for time being and use some flexible exhaust piping w/rubber coating on it. Heres the tutorial I'll be following:
http://208.186.78.102/forums/showthread.php?t=98542 ('http://208.186.78.102/forums/showthread.php?t=98542')

Considering that the DSMs run some 14-16 psi stock, I don't believe I have too many problems with it at 8 psi.

I think I'll install the tranny cooler soon (thanks for the heads up ~ didn't realize think about that). Considering that I'm basicly out of money to do anymore *major* mods, I'm going to try to keep this tranny for a while.

BTW After reading the thread over at Club3g about the overheating issues, I suddenly developed a whole new love for our grills (excellent airflow). https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

Also remember, that the weak point in our V6 engine is the pistons, and without putting in stronger pistons, we can only safely go up to 8PSI - my dyno run was at 6PSI with a stock catback at base tune, so I also could probably eek out a few more HP with a better tune. Still, she does pull pretty hard :twisted:

Nice progress guys!

Are you going to go for a slimline fan, or do you have enough clearance for the stock fan with the controller relocated?

Where is the air filter going to sit? Have you figured out your intercooler piping yet?

BTW, I'd suggest installing the tranny cooler *now* so you won't have to removing the piping later to get at the stock tranny cooler lines. :oops: Unless of cource you still plan to go manual...

DOHCstunr

03-28-2006, 03:58 PM

galant_got_speed

03-28-2006, 04:06 PM

may i ask where the HELL you guys get all this money?? i want turbo sooo bad its killing me to see these threads!

DryBear

03-28-2006, 05:06 PM

Well I'm going to be ordering a slimline with my next paycheck. As it is, even with the extra clearance we were able to scavange, I don't think the stock fan would work (stocker is HUGE).

Which fan were you thinking to get? I still have the Hayden slim fan I never used.

lol we havn't even began to think about the FMIC piping. Though I do plan to go the ghetto way for time being and use some flexible exhaust piping w/rubber coating on it. Heres the tutorial I'll be following:
http://208.186.78.102/forums/showthread.php?t=98542 ('http://208.186.78.102/forums/showthread.php?t=98542')

Considering that the DSMs run some 14-16 psi stock, I don't believe I have too many problems with it at 8 psi.

That's what Brandon aka Underated used initially for his intercooler piping before he took it to a shop to get hard pipe custom made. You might want to check with him.
http://www.blacktrax.net/project001newU.html ('http://www.blacktrax.net/project001newU.html') (Bottom of page)
http://www.blacktrax.net/images/Shop%20Car%20Picts/03-29-05/tn_Galant_pipeBF1.jpg

BTW After reading the thread over at Club3g about the overheating issues, I suddenly developed a whole new love for our grills (excellent airflow). https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

FYI I haven't had *any* overheating issues at all https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

Jet Black

03-28-2006, 05:32 PM

well order your monster slimline, but if you really want a clean bay and room to work,
get one that will fit in front of the radiator and run it as a pusher. or even two smaller ones.
its nice to have the extra room to work with, especially when you are trying to fix leaks(coolant, boost, and exhaust) around the turbo and manifold.

looks clean too to have the extra space and less clutter.
there really are no significant downsides to running it as a pusher either.

i plan to do it, not because i have any reason at all to, but just to make the engine bay cleaner.
even with my beefy new snail and external gate, i still have plenty of room and clearance to work with. it will only get better with a pair of pushers.

Honestly I was thinking about doing that, but about the only reason I want to keep it inside the engine bay is to act as a sort of shield against the turbo.

The turbo [with the extra room] is still only about two inches away from the radiator. I figure that instead of having to create my own "radiator guard" it might be easier to use the fan as a guard.

Another option [instead of using the fan as a "gaurd"] is this:
I could possibly fabricate some sort of mount for the turbo like tearstone did (instead of bolting straight into the compressor housing, I plan to bolt it into one of the housing bolts:
http://tearstone.com/shop/images/stories/v62.jpg ('http://tearstone.com/shop/images/stories/v62.jpg')

The reason I don't like the above idea is that it now adds a little too much rigidity to the turbo. Maybe I could use a heavy duty spring instead?

Which fan were you thinking to get? I still have the Hayden slim fan I never used.
I was planning on using a spal fan. Hmmm how big is your Hayden fan (depth wise)?

That's what Brandon aka Underated used initially for his intercooler piping before he took it to a shop to get hard pipe custom made. You might want to check with him.
http://www.blacktrax.net/project001newU.html ('http://www.blacktrax.net/project001newU.html') (Bottom of page)
http://www.blacktrax.net/images/Shop%20Car%20Picts/03-29-05/tn_Galant_pipeBF1.jpg

Believe it or not, thats where I originally got my idea from. I googled it, and one of the first links was the "upgraded" version of the same idea (the rubber coated one).

FYI I haven't had *any* overheating issues at all https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

Hell ya bro, thats what I want to hear. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif I read through that thread like 3 times before I realized that the key reason for their heating issues was the lack of any upper grill. Only when someone posted a picture of the Evos front, did it hit me.

BTW Do you know if our radiators (99-01) are the same as the ones on the 01 GT? Tear said the 01 GTs have a rediclously skinny radiators.

seth98esT

03-28-2006, 05:34 PM

galant_got_speed

03-28-2006, 06:10 PM

may i ask where the HELL you guys get all this money?? i want turbo sooo bad its killing me to see these threads!
We ALL are modding on a budget. If you want to see people with "bottumless wallets" for modding, go to the supra forums haha!

budget?! some of these guys have put like 10k+ into their cars, how the FUCK is that a budget lol...ive put like 400 hahah...supra forums good god, get eaten alive over there.

speaking of budget...anyone know where theblackpearl has been? hes the one selling his parts right cuz hes moving? i wanted his NOS kit...

underated

03-31-2006, 04:01 AM

haha yah i used the flex pipe it worked great... i didnt coat it cuz it wasnt on the car very long but you can use this stuff called PLASTIDIP its a rubber coating that holds up to heat very well i got mine from homedepot. right now im using it to coat my trunk since i got rid of the carpet and the rear is gutted

DOHCstunr

07-02-2006, 11:35 PM

how about an update already, you've been working on this for over a year

Jet Black

07-03-2006, 02:03 PM

Only been working on it for about 5 months...been buying parts for well over a year now.

Nothing really new to report. Matta and I are still fabricating various pipes. I'm happy to report that the collector pipes are now properly mounted. That alone took atleast a dozen seperate modifications. Also the downpipe is basicly completed. Now were working on the FMIC piping.

At this point the biggest roadblock is lack of funds. Piping isn't exactly cheap (atleast for someone who's living on $400 a month). So I'm buying it all in small quantities. Now consider that with the fact that both Matt and I are learning how to weld as were making the pipes...most people learn on spare metal.

Either way July 27th [MOD06], all or nothing.

Jet Black

08-18-2006, 01:58 PM

July 27th came and went.

Today 07-18-06 is the day that my turbo came to life.

After TWO weeks of non-stop work with several friends, <span style='font-size:30pt;line-height:100%'>today the turbo began to spool for the first time. </span>

It makes an unbelievable sound with no filter (just a MAF stuck on the end of it).

Now I need to get it the idle to stable out.

DOHCstunr

08-18-2006, 04:48 PM

congrats!!

two choices though.
pics or ban
its entirely up to you.

vids woudl be nice as well.

don't you tease me damnit :wink:

gtx

08-18-2006, 05:15 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DOHCstunr)</div><div class='quotemain'>congrats!!

two choices though.
pics or ban
its entirely up to you.

vids woudl be nice as well.

don't you tease me damnit :wink:</div>

lol cosigned

seth98esT

08-18-2006, 05:25 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jet Black)</div><div class='quotemain'>July 27th came and went.

Today 07-18-06 is the day that my turbo came to life.

After TWO weeks of non-stop work with several friends, <span style='font-size:30pt;line-height:100%'>today the turbo began to spool for the first time. Â*</span>

It makes an unbelievable sound with no filter (just a MAF stuck on the end of it).

Now I need to get it the idle to stable out.</div>
If by today you mean 8-18-2006, then yes, today is the day.

What size injectors are you using again? What kind of idle? High idle, no idle, rough idle? Boost leaks are miostly the cause of no idles.

SLS2000

08-18-2006, 05:27 PM

:wow: :shock:

and waiting. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

DOHCstunr

08-18-2006, 06:05 PM

its a shame for you to of come so far just to get banned on a nice nday like today.

don't cut yourself short.
post some pics/ vids.

Jet Black

08-18-2006, 09:10 PM

We went out to make the video.

The oil return line barb fitting broke.

The oil feed setup worked flawlessly. It pumped all of the oil out of the motor. Drove for a mile before realizing there was no oil in the motor.

...damn this sucks.

DOHCstunr

08-18-2006, 09:19 PM

damn this thread has nearly 10,000 views!

dude that sucsk!!

what kind of return fitting did you use?
how do you know you were completely out of oil?

did you shut it off the second you saw the oil pressure warning light?

do you have an oil pressure gauge?

have you fixed the issue yet?

OMG

peanotation

08-19-2006, 04:57 AM

dude wth. i'm coming down tommorow with the compression tester....i better see a case of oil and a new filter sitting nearby for the massive 3rd gear pulls we're gonna be doing all night.

and how the hell did the barb fitting break? did it snap off? if so, why? did you cut it down afterall for the clearance issues?

DOHCstunr

08-19-2006, 12:28 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(peanotation)</div><div class='quotemain'>dude wth. i'm coming down tommorow with the compression tester....i better see a case of oil and a new filter sitting nearby for the massive 3rd gear pulls we're gonna be doing all night.

and how the hell did the barb fitting break? did it snap off? if so, why? did you cut it down afterall for the clearance issues?</div>

clearance issues huh?
was there an interference issue with the fitting and a crossmember or frame part?
did you account for the torque of the motor causing the engine to move around?
especially the torque of a turbo v6?

i need to know whats up!!

peanotation

08-19-2006, 12:52 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DOHCstunr)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(peanotation)</div><div class='quotemain'>dude wth. i'm coming down tommorow with the compression tester....i better see a case of oil and a new filter sitting nearby for the massive 3rd gear pulls we're gonna be doing all night.

and how the hell did the barb fitting break? did it snap off? if so, why? did you cut it down afterall for the clearance issues?</div>

clearance issues huh?
was there an interference issue with the fitting and a crossmember or frame part?
did you account for the torque of the motor causing the engine to move around?
especially the torque of a turbo v6?

i need to know whats up!!</div>

me too, i'm going down there today to beat some answers out of that kid. the barb fitting was coming into contact with the.....manifold? i think? shit i forgot what it was hitting....i want to say the crossmember but i dont think that's right

Jet Black

08-19-2006, 02:23 PM

The fitting that broke was a simple barb fitting. I had cut the original fitting at a 45* angle, and JB Welded it back together to accommodate its position behind the alternator. The mistake I had made was letting the drain hang down below the cross member. Somewhere along our trip the drain probably got caught on something in the ground and instead of tearing, it broke at the weakest link...the JB welded barb fitting.

About a mile from my house the oil light came on. I though it was due to faulty wiring on my part and paid it no head. In retrospect this was plain retarded considering that the oil sender unit is nothing more than a positive wire. As such "faulty wiring" the sender unit would simply result in no oil light illuminating.

So I drove it for another mile at around 1500 RPM.

Dropped the oil pan last night. Didn't see any metal shavings yet.

We'll see what the compression results are.

DryBear

08-19-2006, 08:19 PM

Congrats on getting her running - and good luck with the engine!

Jet Black

08-20-2006, 12:53 AM

Well we (Matt, Ash, I) have some great news. The engine is not in fact blown. We did the compression test and it came back excellent...sorta.

180 psi is what the stock compression is at.

The results came back (1-6):
180 | 190 | 190 | 200 | 200 | 210

The cylinder closest to the fuel feed had the highest compression, and it went down from there. When we pulled the spark plugs they were coated thick with carbon deposits. Needless to say the car was running pig-fucking rich.

I'm done with the low-impidence injectors. I'm going to reinstall the 210cc to atleast get it running right. Matt is going to be letting me borrow his wideband to make sure I'm not going to lean out too much.

As for extra fuel. I've decided that I'm for sure going to use a setup similiar to RIPP's. That is place a large injector(s) somewhere in the intake tract and go from there.

Anyways, tommorow the turbo goes back in.

seth98esT

08-20-2006, 12:56 AM

Sweet, let the boosting saga continue!

DOHCstunr

08-20-2006, 01:03 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jet Black)</div><div class='quotemain'>Well we (Matt, Ash, I) have some great news. Â*The engine is not in fact blown. Â*We did the compression test and it came back excellent...sorta.

180 psi is what the stock compression is at.

The results came back (1-6):
180 | 190 | 190 | 200 | 200 | 210

The cylinder closest to the fuel feed had the highest compression, and it went down from there. Â*When we pulled the spark plugs they were coated thick with carbon deposits. Â*Needless to say the car was running pig-fucking rich.

I'm done with the low-impidence injectors. Â*I'm going to reinstall the 210cc to atleast get it running right. Â*Matt is going to be letting me borrow his wideband to make sure I'm not going to lean out too much. Â*

As for extra fuel. Â*I've decided that I'm for sure going to use a setup similiar to RIPP's. Â*That is place a large injector(s) somewhere in the intake tract and go from there.

Anyways, tommorow the turbo goes back in.</div>

you won't know for sure if your are good until you drive around at wot w/o boost a few times.

jut cause yrou rings are gold doesn't mean you didn't damage any of your many many bearings.

i'm sure everything will be fine though

i'm so not for auxillary fuel injector suppliments.

direct port fuel injection is the way to go man.

what are you using to tun ewith?

i mean how can you knock yoru fuel injectors after 1/2 a day of driving lol.
tunign takes time to get it right.

you'll get it.

Jet Black

08-20-2006, 03:51 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DOHCstunr)</div><div class='quotemain'>you won't know for sure if your are good until you drive around at wot w/o boost a few times.

jut cause yrou rings are gold doesn't mean you didn't damage any of your many many bearings.

i'm sure everything will be fine though

i'm so not for auxillary fuel injector suppliments.

direct port fuel injection is the way to go man.

what are you using to tun ewith?

i mean how can you knock yoru fuel injectors after 1/2 a day of driving lol.
tunign takes time to get it right.

you'll get it.</div>

Good point about the main bearings. I'm actually surpised that my cylinders held such good compression (asides from the carbon deposits) at a hair under 120k.

I'm using the Emanage Blue to tune. Over the last 3 days, I've done just about everything I can think of to get these low impedance injectors to work. I started the turbo install by installing the injectors first. With the stock exhaust and the emanage injector correction, the car would barely idle. It ran as well as a car without a MAF. I reinstalled the resistors three seperate times. Each time I switched the wires they were spliced into. The last time I switched back the resistors, I decided to install the turbo as well, believing that they were bound to work (they were spliced into the positive wire - I checked resistance, and voltage - both came back perfect). Still a terrible idle, sputtering, hesitation, random shutdowns, ect ect.

At this point I'm switching back to the stock injectors to see if I can eliminate a few possibilities (i.e. fpr, pump). I'll also recheck the emanage MAF wiring (the injector correction is applied by modifying the MAF voltage - fuel can be added by increasing the IPW directly to the injectors).

One possibilitie maybe the pump. I was going to install it after I installed the injectors, and got the car to idle. I figured the stock pump can maintain a base idle pressure. Though I'm now wondering if thats true.

DOHCstunr

08-20-2006, 10:15 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jet Black)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DOHCstunr)</div><div class='quotemain'>you won't know for sure if your are good until you drive around at wot w/o boost a few times.

jut cause yrou rings are gold doesn't mean you didn't damage any of your many many bearings.

i'm sure everything will be fine though

i'm so not for auxillary fuel injector suppliments.

direct port fuel injection is the way to go man.

what are you using to tun ewith?

i mean how can you knock yoru fuel injectors after 1/2 a day of driving lol.
tunign takes time to get it right.

you'll get it.</div>

Good point about the main bearings. I'm actually surpised that my cylinders held such good compression (asides from the carbon deposits) at a hair under 120k.

I'm using the Emanage Blue to tune. Over the last 3 days, I've done just about everything I can think of to get these low impedance injectors to work. I started the turbo install by installing the injectors first. With the stock exhaust and the emanage injector correction, the car would barely idle. It ran as well as a car without a MAF. I reinstalled the resistors three seperate times. Each time I switched the wires they were spliced into. The last time I switched back the resistors, I decided to install the turbo as well, believing that they were bound to work (they were spliced into the positive wire - I checked resistance, and voltage - both came back perfect). Still a terrible idle, sputtering, hesitation, random shutdowns, ect ect.

At this point I'm switching back to the stock injectors to see if I can eliminate a few possibilities (i.e. fpr, pump). I'll also recheck the emanage MAF wiring (the injector correction is applied by modifying the MAF voltage - fuel can be added by increasing the IPW directly to the injectors).

One possibilitie maybe the pump. I was going to install it after I installed the injectors, and got the car to idle. I figured the stock pump can maintain a base idle pressure. Though I'm now wondering if thats true.</div>

what fuel pressure are you running?

Jet Black

08-20-2006, 02:54 PM

No idea. :oops:

I'm going to have to borrow Matts AFPR.

seth98esT

08-20-2006, 03:03 PM

What fuel pump?

Jet Black

08-20-2006, 03:30 PM

Stock for now. 190 lph waiting to be dropped in.

peanotation

08-20-2006, 03:35 PM

john's got my bov....you'll have my wideband and afpr.....lol, why can't MYYYY car be turbo :cry:

NelsonC

08-25-2006, 01:25 AM

:smileysex: <--me and your car. Well looks like were gonna have a kick ass winter meet and i get a test drive! dibs. gas is on me : D

4-G-rim

08-25-2006, 09:24 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(peanotation)</div><div class='quotemain'>john's got my bov....you'll have my wideband and afpr.....lol, why can't MYYYY car be turbo Â*:cry:</div>

I just hope Jet Black doesn't get the same fate as your Matt. I am referring to those Cali vehicle inspection deals.

Vidz of the car running on the new setup!!!

Jet Black

08-26-2006, 04:08 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NelsonC)</div><div class='quotemain'>:smileysex: Â*<--me and your car. Â*Well looks like were gonna have a kick ass winter meet and i get a test drive! dibs. gas is on me : D</div>

Haha for sure dude. You get the gas, I'll cover the <span style='color:green'>other stuff.</span> https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(4-G-rim)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(peanotation)</div><div class='quotemain'>john's got my bov....you'll have my wideband and afpr.....lol, why can't MYYYY car be turbo Â*:cry:</div>

I just hope Jet Black doesn't get the same fate as your Matt. I am referring to those Cali vehicle inspection deals.

Vidz of the car running on the new setup!!!</div>

Honestly, its hard to quantify how much I fear that scenario. Thats about the ONLY reason that I'm not modifying my stock parts right now.

Well we got a few videos so far. My wideband is coming on tuesday, and then the fun really begins.

Ok time for a real update to whats been going on for the last few days:

After the whole oil spill drama, I returned my fuel system back to stock. With the stock system, I finally got the car to somewhat run with no less than 4 codes (O2 sensor, O2 heater, MAP sensor, IAT sensor), and multiple vacuum leaks. The O2 codes are due to the fact that my rear bank O2 sensor isn't hooked up (no bung in place on these manifolds ~ order one already). The MAP codes was due to the vacuum leaks. And finally the IAT might have something to do with me dropping the MAS onto the floor like an idiot. Also my Emanage was throwing a MAF error as well. And the icing on the cake was the fact that my 3">2.5" 90* coupler was too big for the throttle body. Turns out the throttle body requires a 2.75" coupler. Since no one seems to make 2.75">2.5" 90* bends, I went ahead and order a straight coupler. I figure I would relocate the battery and run a better intake setup with less elbows.

So with all this, and a fucked up section of charge pipe*, Matt, Ash, and I set out for a test drive (actually we went to get some gas for my car). Somewhere along the drive, the fucked up section of charge pipe* popped off. Luckily I brought the stock intake with me, and we returned it back to NA. We got a small video of what it sounded like at idle. ('http://videos.streetfire.net/video/6d1b673d-3c01-426d-902e-98290114b12c.htm')

Next day, same shit. We were still struggling with the fucked up section of charge pipe* as it would refuse to stay put. Ash then suggested that we trade my hard pipe for his stock flex pipe from his GS-T. This was a god send. A few cuts here and there and it was complete. That immediatly solved my problem with the fucked up section of charge pipe* popping off. For the 2.75" coupler, I found that it fit perfectly within the 3" coupler. So I cut it in half, and slid it over the TB. Then I slid the 3" over the 2.75", which made an excellent seal.

{As a side note, I really wonder WTF does Mitsubishi get their braided intake hoses? I love that shit, even if it bloats out worst than a newly wed wife, it still really easy to use.}

The car still refused to go past 0 psi.

So we moved on to capping all the boost leaks. After buying the proper size hose (the stuff I was originally using was too big by hair), the car began to run MUCH better. The exhaust was still too loud for me to be able to drive it anywhere distant. That would be fixed down the road.

Next up was the intake setup. Turns out that the Supra BOV I was using was mounted backwards. Same with the placement of the vacuum line on the Tial (we put it on the top...which is meant for a boost controller). Now I've corrected those problems, as well as the exhaust problems, I've yet to take it out for another ride. The exhaust is routed back into the stock 2.25" exhaust...which is seemingly terrible. Also the charge pipe that leads to the TB runs right over the compressor, and as such it heats right back up. Luckily I have 50ft of heat wrap, which I'll use after I smooth down the welds.

More updates soon. I'm going to try to hook up the VR4 fuel system again today.

seth98esT

08-26-2006, 04:20 PM

Sounds like you guys are ironing out most everything. Is your turbo internally gated or are you using an external? Im too lazy to check.

Jet Black

08-26-2006, 04:30 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(seth98esT)</div><div class='quotemain'>Sounds like you guys are ironing out most everything. Â*Is your turbo internally gated or are you using an external? Â*Im too lazy to check.</div>

Yep thats basicly it. Slowly getting all the problems worked out one by one.

Right now I'm running an external Tial 38mm.

DryBear

08-26-2006, 04:35 PM

FYI, I was able to fit the 2.5" elbow onto my TB by using some WD-40, and a bit of patience, but yeah, a 2.75 would fit perfectly - my old AEM WAI had a 2.75" elbow BTW.

Your idle sounds like how mine was when I had miswired the eManage - if I remember correctly, I had hooked up one of the wires that was not used instead of one of the wires for the airflow signal :blush:

Nice progress, man - you still going to do the manual swap? The last of my parts arrive on Monday so I can finally finish then.

peanotation

08-26-2006, 04:43 PM

how do your hands feel :?:

Jet Black

08-26-2006, 04:43 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DryBear)</div><div class='quotemain'>FYI, I was able to fit the 2.5" elbow onto my TB by using some WD-40, and a bit of patience, but yeah, a 2.75 would fit perfectly - my old AEM WAI had a 2.75" elbow BTW.

Your idle sounds like how mine was when I had the airflow input/output wires going the wrong way on the eManage.

Nice progress, man - you still going to do the manual swap? The last of my parts arrive on Monday so I can finally finish then.</div>

Well I'll look into that. Though I installed the emanage about a year ago and never had any problems. But then again, that was with no injector correction.

Another possibility is the lack of a rear O2. Its stuck in open loop, when it should be closed. Also that video was shot with the vacuum leaks.

Jet Black

08-26-2006, 04:45 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(peanotation)</div><div class='quotemain'>how do your hands feel Â*:?:</div>

They feel like I just jammed my hands into a jar of glass shards and squeezed.

BTW what are you doing today?

Jet Black

09-02-2006, 05:53 PM

One Minute Update:

Over the last few days I've (we've) been steadily tackling one problem after another. The boost gauge works fine after I tapped it into another vacuum source (*note*). Insofar I've hit a ground shattering 2 psi. At one point it even creeped up to 4 (directly after going to 2nd). Despite the boost, I'm still fairly impressed with the car's performance. 50-80 mph is the sweet spot in which it pulls harder than ever. I should add that it spools up quicker than I expected....in spite of the boost leaks, and the 2.25" stock piping that the downpipe is routed to (car is a lot more drivable now).

On the other hand, the boost leaks are seriously fucking me over bad. I found a on old bicycle pump and cut off the end of it. Turns out the rubber tube fits perfectly over the vacuum hose T. The flux core welds don't have as many leaks as I anticipated. But this is probably because I can't detect them, as I am unable to keep the whole manifold pressurised.

---Few days later---

Today I dropped the whole manifold and may have found the problems. It seems that the manifold welds very well sealed. Though the leaks are happening between the manifold flanges...I forgot to install the gaskets. :roll: :evil: I can see thick black soot running between the pipes flanges. At every flange (total of 4, before the turbo exhaust inlet), there are clear signs of leaking exhaust gasses. Everytime the manifold would begin to pressurize, the gasses would leak right out of the flanges. Well now I'm off to Home Depot to search for some copper sheets to make gaskets out of.

Either way, after fixing the leaks, if I continue to have problems, then I will be swapping out the T4 for the T3. The T3 is practically guaranteed insta-spool.

*note* The vacuum diagrams show that the small hoses are all supposed to be running off the manifolds vacuum. While they do see vacuum, they only see a fraction of the total vacuum.

peanotation

09-02-2006, 06:56 PM

if home depot doesn't have anything, i bought a sheet of a gasket material at napa for like $30 and you can cut any gasket you want. i think once you get that fixed you should be able to boost normally....

DOHCstunr

09-02-2006, 09:14 PM

just use a few coats of copper spray on all the gaskets you make.
i bought a big sheet of exhaust gasket material like peano got.
it works great.
for extra protection i spray them with copper spray.

note...
the copper spray has to bake in.. to make a long lasting bond/seal.

until its carbonized, it will be like a bubbling liquid(once its hot). too much exhaust pressure may cause it to blow out.

so the best thing to do is after you get everythgin bolted down.
start the car up and let it idle for 10 minutes or so.
until the smoke starts to reside.
after that,
let it cool for 20 minutes or so befopre you take it for a low rpm test drive. drive ti for a few miles. go home and park it.
after it sits it will be good as gold with zero leaks.

Whats the inner diameter of your boost/vac lines?
are you using zip ties to secure them on the nipples?

when you do your boost leak test.
try capping off your breather(if that changes anything, then you have a leaking pcv valve)
pcv valves leak
all the damn time
its one of thopse cursed boost leaks you can't get around w/o either trying 9 out of 10 OEM dealer pcv valves.... or doing a entirely different race only breather setup.

also,
try capping off your bov,
also, put a brick on yoru gas pedal so the throttle is open so that the system is pressurized evenly.

other places to look for:
throttle body shaft seals(once you hear a hiss by your throttle, try working the plate back and forth... if the note changes, then its yoru seals)

throttle body gasket

intake manni gaskets

plenum gasket

fuel injector lower seals (the rubber donuts that go between the injector and the head)

that shoudl get your started. those ar the most major.

underated

09-03-2006, 01:14 PM

im glad your doing this yourself... i couldnt imagine how much this would cost at a shop.

vacuum/boost leaks are a pain in the ass its not possible to use a bike pump to cheack the leaks i found that out the hard way too

are you using regular clamps or t-bolts?

i ended up using carb cleaner while the car was running to find all my leaks... it ended up being the injector seals and tb gaskets

hope you get this running right i know its pretty fustrating right now but its all worth it in the end

Stewi

09-03-2006, 05:31 PM

I made a boost leak "tester" from PVC pipe and barb fittings from home depot. I just let my air compressor run low until it was about 40psi, then I slid a silcone coupler over the tester and the turbo and I pressurized the entire system like that. At that point its really really easy to find leaks.

seth98esT

09-03-2006, 05:38 PM

Yah, I made a PVC tester too, but I added a valve and a gauge so I knew how much pressure was going through https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

Jet Black

09-03-2006, 06:24 PM

First off, DOHC-> Best Post Ever! This should be a sticky.

Ok so I'll try to purchase some of the gasket paper, though idk who sells it around here. The local Napa is the size of my closet, the Pep Boys only has neon-colored DIY intake kits, and autozone doesn't exist anywhere close by. If I can't find it, I might still go with straight copper sheeting. When I first got my manifold, the edges still had some orange RTV on them (good condition too, still rubbery). Considering that these manifolds were used for some 40k miles before I aquired them, I think I'll give that a try as well (it wasn't even the hi-temp stuff).

My vac lines are the same size as the smaller ones (not sure of the ID) that rest on the back of the plenum. Though they are sourced at a thicker line that runs directly into the plenum.

Good call on the PCV. I'll go ahead and reroute it back into the intake. With a 120k miles (most of them were abusive miles) thats definetly not out of the question. I don't know if this means anything, but I can blow/such through the PCV tube with a little effort.

The BOV is from a stock TT Supra. Which afaik is not meant to be vented. Right now I'm venting as I have no room to route the bov line back. This could also be a potential problem so I'll go ahead and cap it off temporarily.

I STRONGLY suspect the TB seals to be shot. I've been reading some DSM tutorials of leaktests with the throttle plate closed, and they seem to be able to pressurize the intake system without it leaking past the TB immediatly. While they can keep the intake pressurized for nearly two minutes, I can't hold any pressure at all (I can pump up to 10 psi, but it drops to zero almost immediatly). Also I clearly hear the sound you are talking about. I've heard it multiple times but didn't think anything of it till now.

Anyways I now have a new motor sitting in my garage. It has 41k miles, so its basicly in excellent condition (probably dealership serviced since its still under 60k). I'll begin to swap over the whole upper intake manifold, including the throttle body.

I'll keep you guys updated.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DOHCstunr)</div><div class='quotemain'>just use a few coats of copper spray on all the gaskets you make.
i bought a big sheet of exhaust gasket material like peano got.
it works great.
for extra protection i spray them with copper spray.

note...
the copper spray has to bake in.. to make a long lasting bond/seal.

until its carbonized, it will be like a bubbling liquid(once its hot). too much exhaust pressure may cause it to blow out.

so the best thing to do is after you get everythgin bolted down.
start the car up and let it idle for 10 minutes or so.
until the smoke starts to reside.
after that,
let it cool for 20 minutes or so befopre you take it for a low rpm test drive. Â*drive ti for a few miles. go home and park it.
after it sits it will be good as gold with zero leaks.

Whats the inner diameter of your boost/vac lines?
are you using zip ties to secure them on the nipples?

when you do your boost leak test.
try capping off your breather(if that changes anything, Â*then you have a leaking pcv valve)
pcv valves leak Â*
all the damn time
its one of thopse cursed boost leaks you can't get around w/o either trying 9 out of 10 OEM dealer pcv valves.... or doing a entirely different race only breather setup.

also,
try capping off your bov,
also, put a brick on yoru gas pedal so the throttle is open so that the system is pressurized evenly.

other places to look for:
throttle body shaft seals(once you hear a hiss by your throttle, try working the plate back and forth... if the note changes, then its yoru seals) Â*

throttle body gasket

intake manni gaskets

plenum gasket

fuel injector lower seals (the rubber donuts that go between the injector and the head)

that shoudl get your started. those ar the most major.</div>

Jet Black

09-07-2006, 06:48 PM

http://socallifestyle.com/tgc_posts/9psi.wmv

09-07-2006, 06:51 PM

wowowowow!!!

furiousgtz

09-07-2006, 07:32 PM

thats hot !

seth98esT

09-07-2006, 08:30 PM

Nice spike in between shifts :P

Looks like it pulls descent for 5 psi!

Favorite part: "OH SHIT!" haha why such a cool comment?

SLS2000

09-07-2006, 08:56 PM

More! please more!

DryBear

09-07-2006, 09:43 PM

Welcome to boost, brother :twisted:

peanotation

09-08-2006, 01:42 PM

Nice spike in between shifts :P

Looks like it pulls descent for 5 psi!

Favorite part: "OH SHIT!" haha why such a cool comment?

that was the first time i had seen anything over 2psi on his car.....I WAS EXCITED OK SETH?

Jet Black

09-08-2006, 02:19 PM

Thanks for the comments you guys.

Progress report:

Ok after installing the gaskets w/grease on them, and rerouting the downpipe to the atm, the turbo was able to produce considerably more boost. Now while we did hit 5 psi (we used to spike to 4 psi), we still need to track down the other 4 psi (some of it may simply be due to inefficient manifold design and a larger turbine housing).

Also I experienced my first detonation yesterday. After pulling over to fix a blown coupler (4th or 5th time within a few miles ~ t-bolts on the way), I got on it trying to chase after a C6. Within a second of going WOT, we heard what sounded like a gun shot. We decided to call it quits right there. And drove the car home (nothing sounded/felt abnormal). I'm yet to pull the plugs.

4-G-rim

09-08-2006, 02:28 PM

DOHCstunr

09-08-2006, 02:47 PM

I will have to check out the video after work...dayam firewall here!

Anyways...the "detonation" you experienced when did it happen again? You said you WOT..but did you watch if you redlined? Sometimes when I redline I will get that "gun shot" noise too. When you turbo...sometimes you don't realize how fast the car goes through the RPM's so before you know it you redline. If thats so...that is just some misfire making that noise. Well...I hope so least.

yeah with no cats,
when you hit the rev liimiter(spark arrest)
there is still a super rich mixture and what happens is the fuel ignites in the manifold, or downpipe.
(thats why you see cars with straight through exhausts like gsx's or wrx's spit fire between shifts!!!

knock is actually more of a PING.

i used to use just plain wheel bearing grease to help seal gaskets.... it worked...

but nothing works as well as copper spray.

Jet Black

09-08-2006, 03:02 PM

yeah with no cats,
when you hit the rev liimiter(spark arrest)
there is still a super rich mixture and what happens is the fuel ignites in the manifold, or downpipe.
(thats why you see cars with straight through exhausts like gsx's or wrx's spit fire between shifts!!!

knock is actually more of a PING.

i used to use just plain wheel bearing grease to help seal gaskets.... it worked...

but nothing works as well as copper spray.

Sweet! I've joined the shooting-fire-from exhaust club. :D

Ya I can't afford copper gasket. In fact I can't afford new gaskets. I'm reusing the same gaskets from my car that I've been using for the last 120k miles.

I will have to check out the video after work...dayam firewall here!

Anyways...the "detonation" you experienced when did it happen again? You said you WOT..but did you watch if you redlined? Sometimes when I redline I will get that "gun shot" noise too. When you turbo...sometimes you don't realize how fast the car goes through the RPM's so before you know it you redline. If thats so...that is just some misfire making that noise. Well...I hope so least.

Honestly I can't remeber exactly when it happened. It might have been right after shifting. I didn't realize that misfires can be so loud. Though it makes perfect sense considering that I have about 2 feet of 3" piping. And for that matter, I saw no change in driving habit. Considering that it happened after the 5th run, AND after let the car sit for a while, the whole exhaust system was probably hot as shit. Enough so to reignite the rich leftover.

Cheesy video I made:
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/da548f8...83600ecede0.htm (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/da548f82-fde5-4291-b68c-983600ecede0.htm)

seth98esT

09-08-2006, 04:16 PM

Could be fuel cut? Stock injectors still right? Ive hit fuel cut a few times during a WOT 3rd gear pull. Its sooooooooooooo loud, feels like hitting a brick wall.

Or it could just be excess fuel being ignited in your exhaust. Turbos are fun though :)

Jet Black

09-08-2006, 04:44 PM

DryBear

09-08-2006, 04:46 PM

When I hit fuel cut, er, following Brandon on the freeway, it didn't make any noise, or anything, so don't think that would be it. Brandon had also hit fuel cut many times, that one day :lol:

seth98esT

09-08-2006, 05:16 PM

Ah not fuel cut then. From my experience and readings, fuel cut will feel like you hit a brick wall, followed by a very loud backfire which comes from the engine bay and not out the tailpipe.

Its actually kind of scary haha.

4-G-rim

09-08-2006, 05:20 PM

Like what Seth said..turbo's are fun. Don't worry man...when I first heard that "gun shot" sound from the car that scared and worried the crap out of me. I finally realized it was good ol' rich backfire..but none the less, it was effin LOUD. Its actually pretty fun especially when the backfiring happens and so happens a car is next to near to my exhaust side. I think I scared a few drivers since they kinda swirve from being probably startled.

I think I got video somewhere of the backfire fun....if I can find it, i'll post it up.

Jet Black

09-08-2006, 05:42 PM

When I hit fuel cut, er, following Brandon on the freeway, it didn't make any noise, or anything, so don't think that would be it. Brandon had also hit fuel cut many times, that one day :lol:

Holy crap dude! I though that fuel cut could potentially lead to big problems? BTW Do you have any more footage of your car?

Ah not fuel cut then. From my experience and readings, fuel cut will feel like you hit a brick wall, followed by a very loud backfire which comes from the engine bay and not out the tailpipe.

Its actually kind of scary haha.

Ya dude I got to say that gun shot scared the hell out of me. While I was flooring it, there was an old man on the other side of the street. I didn't want to frighten him or anything (BoB makes me respect anyone who looks like they fought in WWII), but as I passed him BOOM! Felt kinda sorry for the guy. I mean it was loud enough inside the cabin. I can imagine that it was loud enough outside to be heard for a good half mile.

Like what Seth said..turbo's are fun. Don't worry man...when I first heard that "gun shot" sound from the car that scared and worried the crap out of me. I finally realized it was good ol' rich backfire..but none the less, it was effin LOUD. Its actually pretty fun especially when the backfiring happens and so happens a car is next to near to my exhaust side. I think I scared a few drivers since they kinda swirve from being probably startled.

I think I got video somewhere of the backfire fun....if I can find it, i'll post it up.

Haha ya I can imagine that it begins to be pretty entertaining. I've seen the backfire a million times on various vehicles, but never actually heard it. I can't wait to start spitting out flames. :laughing: In all honesty, I'm not entirely worried about blowing my engine. I have another one sitting in my garage right now. And for that matter I won't be driving my car for about 3 months while I'm off at school.

I would really like to see your video of the backfire.

4-G-rim

09-09-2006, 09:51 AM

Jet Black

09-10-2006, 05:28 PM

I found the video this morning...so I am going to see if I can make a quick vid of it. The car doesn't shoot out flames..but you can hear the back fire. Didn't realize how rich I was running either...lots of black smoke :cool:
Here you go Jet Black...I posted the video here:
Backfire vid (https://www.thegalantcenter.org/index.php?showtopic=50497)

Thanks for the video dude. While I can't say that mine sounded anything like that, I believe this is simply due to different circumstances. That is, 3 feet of 3" open dump DP, and first time hearing it.

So right now my two biggest problems are:
1) Still ZERO boost in 1st gear.
2) Couplers popping off, EVERY single time I boost (t-bolts will be arriving ONE day before I'm leaving my car behind).

The first problem seems to be directly related to several factors:
a) Massive exhaust restriction. A turbo that is basicly meant purely for top end does not respond well to my 2.25" stock catback (3" DP). I gained anywhere from 1-3 psi by simply removing the stock exhaust.
b) Oversized exhaust housing from the start. .96 AR is not a street trim. I'm planning on going to other end of the spectrum with a .69 AR. The .96 I will save for the other motor. Quite a few turbo 3Gs are using .63 AR T3s for the exhaust.
c) Vacuum leaks: I determined that the biggest source of vacuum leaks must be the couplers. Considering that they pop clean off at a mere 5 psi, they are probably bleeding boost well before then. Though the seals in the intake manifold is also suspect.
d) Poor turbo manifold design. The rear bank (bank #1) has a good 2-3 feet of extra piping before it reaches the collector. The front bank only has about 6" of travel till the collector. And on top of that, the collector is another foot to the flange. I imagine that this causes atleast some backpressure for the rear bank. Also inside of the manifolds themselves, their are PLENTY of stalagmites, and "metal envelopes" (from overlapping pipes ~ my fault) for the gasses to get trapped in. With the new engine, I will be totally redoing the whole manifold setup. If I can't have equal length, I will atleast keep the two banks seperate till the flange.

Anyways, I found some information that confirmed some of my thoughts on the issue of turbo lag:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>A given turbocharged vehicle may produce full boost in first gear by 3500 rpm. This same vehicle may produce full boost in 4th gear by 2300 rpm. The same vehicle, when pulling a heavy trailer, may produce full boost by 1800 rpm even in 1st gear. These conditions are more specific to manual transmission vehicles as the boost has to build in each gear after the throttle is closed during the shift. Automatic transmission vehicles operate differently as they can be "loaded" by stalling up the converter and placing enough load to build boost before the vehicle even moves. Also, with an automatic transmission, the throttle is not shut during shifts which causes the boost to "pop up" because the turbo is supplying enough air flow to feed the boosted engine at high rpms and suddenly the rpms are drastically cut down by the shift as well as increased load has been placed on the system at the same time. This can cause an engine that is accelerating in 1st gear with low boost to instantly go to full boost upon shifting into 2nd gear.</div>
http://www.ststurbo.com/turbolag

DryBear

09-10-2006, 09:12 PM

Jet Black

09-10-2006, 09:22 PM

I'm presuming that the ends of the pipes where the couplers are blowing off are not beaded - I have no clue how you would go about getting that done, but having beaded pipe ends would help with the couplers problem.

For sure it would. I'm considering doing some ghetto-beads with my welder. A few spot welds, and some grinding down should suffice.

Though in the bigger picture, I want to eliminate as many couplers as possible by welding them together.

seth98esT

09-10-2006, 09:25 PM

Yah man, you have a welder, I was very surprised that you didnt weld the piping all together! And 110%, get rid of all those nasty 90* bends in the UIC!

Jet Black

09-10-2006, 09:37 PM

Yah man, you have a welder, I was very surprised that you didnt weld the piping all together! And 110%, get rid of all those nasty 90* bends in the UIC!

Well I decided to use the cheap-o 90* couplers in the UIC till I could afford to purchase more piping and wire to relocate the battery. 90% of the blow offs are coming from those two 90* couplers.

4g63lover

09-10-2006, 10:32 PM

wow.. I'm getting excited. I cant wait til' I'm DOHC'd up and tuboed. one question how often does your coupler fly off of your I/C pipes?

DOHCstunr

09-10-2006, 11:52 PM

Well I decided to use the cheap-o 90* couplers in the UIC till I could afford to purchase more piping and wire to relocate the battery. 90% of the blow offs are coming from those two 90* couplers.

clean the ends of the pipes, and the inards fo the couplers with brake parts cleaner..
then wipe them down.
proceed to coat them in some high strength hairspray.
then slide everythign together.

or

you coudl grind near the edges to create a valley for the rubber to mold to in turn creating etter hold after the rubber is clamped down...

or just get yoru welder out,
and put a couple of beads on there.
the easiest thing to do is just put spot sized beads on.
equidistant from each other around the circumference of the pipe.
that way you can put the clamp on the other side of the beads, and the couplers won't slide off.
<span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%">
QUIT F***ING AROUND... AND DO A DAMN BOOST LEAK TEST ALREADY</span>

or you could keep guessing at why its doing this or where this is happening.

just do the damn boost leak test.
test it to 20 psi.
do it over and over until you have zero leaks.
if one thing is obviously leaking that you cannot fix w/o ordering new parts(like a bov or pcv) cap it off and continue with the test.
cause i'm sure that there are other leaks.
get rid of every last leak, and you will have the most accurate tune, and the best possible spoolup.

remember you are MAS
not only does a boost leak effect yoru spoolup... but it also kill syour tune.. causing you to run pig ass rich, and making you hit fuel cut sooner.
yeah thats right ,
i said it.

now get to work.
;-)

Jet Black

09-11-2006, 05:06 AM

clean the ends of the pipes, and the inards fo the couplers with brake parts cleaner..
then wipe them down.
proceed to coat them in some high strength hairspray.
then slide everythign together.

or

you coudl grind near the edges to create a valley for the rubber to mold to in turn creating etter hold after the rubber is clamped down...

or just get yoru welder out,
and put a couple of beads on there.
the easiest thing to do is just put spot sized beads on.
equidistant from each other around the circumference of the pipe.
that way you can put the clamp on the other side of the beads, and the couplers won't slide off.

Ya thats precisely what I had planned to do. That and cleaning the ends should take care of the coupler problems.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%">
QUIT F***ING AROUND... AND DO A DAMN BOOST LEAK TEST ALREADY</span>

or you could keep guessing at why its doing this or where this is happening.

just do the damn boost leak test.

test it to 20 psi.
do it over and over until you have zero leaks.
if one thing is obviously leaking that you cannot fix w/o ordering new parts(like a bov or pcv) cap it off and continue with the test.
cause i'm sure that there are other leaks.
get rid of every last leak, and you will have the most accurate tune, and the best possible spoolup.
</div>

With what? The air compressor that I DON'T own? I tried using the bicycle pump and as Underrated pointed out, that doesn't seem to work. It won't even hold 1 psi without immediatley depressurising. I've tried multiple pipe/pump combinations, and none can even begin to pressurize. Either the pump itself has a leak, or more likely my leaks are so large that a simple bike pump can't keep up.

On the other hand, I found by spraying carb cleaner around the atleast one of the couplers that it was leaking. Though I can't do anything about that till I get the t-bolt clamps.

Three days left. Lets see if I can blow my motor before I leave.

DryBear

09-11-2006, 12:28 PM

With what? The air compressor that I DON'T own? I tried using the bicycle pump and as Underrated pointed out, that doesn't seem to work. It won't even hold 1 psi without immediatley depressurising. I've tried multiple pipe/pump combinations, and none can even begin to pressurize. Either the pump itself has a leak, or more likely my leaks are so large that a simple bike pump can't keep up.

1. Go to Home Depot
2. buy an air compressor
3. build a DIY leak tester
4. do boost leak test
5. Return the compressor to Home Depot and get money back

Jet Black

09-11-2006, 01:41 PM

1. Go to Home Depot
2. buy an air compressor
3. build a DIY leak tester
4. do boost leak test
5. Return the compressor to Home Depot and get money back

I have $17 in the checking account.

4-G-rim

09-11-2006, 03:35 PM

Jet Black...here is what I would do before I did the boost leak test.

First try to eliminate as much coupler connections in your I/C piping. Weld beading should fairly easy for you...since you did you own welding. I weld beaded my pipes..and its pretty easy. Then get some good couplers and quality Tbolt clamps. I got my couplers from ATP turbo online and I also got my couplers and transitions from there too.

I strongly recommend not to get cheap Tbolt clamps. There have been several guys locally that have bought T bolt clamps from Napa and they were worse than worm clamps. The brand they sell on ATP turbo website is a great brand...if I can i'll post the brand name. I was lucky that I found a place locally that sold the same brand.

Once you eliminate some coupler connections and put in new silcone couplers and good ol' T bolt clamps then I would do a boost leak test. I personally don't see why you should do it now since you already know you have boost leaks and you already have a idea where and why you have leaks. Fix the leaks..then do the boost leak test. I am routing for you man...I would like to see your beast ruin some peoples days. :firedevil:

Here is the site I got majority of my couplers, T bolt clamps and transitions.
ATP turbo online (http://www.atpturbo.com/)

seth98esT

09-11-2006, 03:48 PM

Yah, I have t-bolt clamps and I love them! On my UICP, they are all 45* bends so I have never blown off one, but my LICP, I have 3 90* bends, not very sharp bends, but still 90*. I have blown off a coupler there a handful times. But whenever they blew off, I just tightened down those t-bolt clamps and I havent blown off a pipe in months!

This is at 18psi, but just on a puny, low cfm 14b :P

Jet Black

09-11-2006, 05:40 PM

Ya I'm going to get started on the beads today. My problem with beading is that I can't make nice clean welds as I don't have a gas unit. Since I'm using flux core, it looks like shit, and spatters all over the place. This may not matter to a farmer, but for my application its like a machete in place of a scalpel...absolutetly no finese.

Jet Black...here is what I would do before I did the boost leak test.

First try to eliminate as much coupler connections in your I/C piping. Weld beading should fairly easy for you...since you did you own welding. I weld beaded my pipes..and its pretty easy. Then get some good couplers and quality Tbolt clamps. I got my couplers from ATP turbo online and I also got my couplers and transitions from there too.

I strongly recommend not to get cheap Tbolt clamps. There have been several guys locally that have bought T bolt clamps from Napa and they were worse than worm clamps. The brand they sell on ATP turbo website is a great brand...if I can i'll post the brand name. I was lucky that I found a place locally that sold the same brand.

The T-bolt clamps I'm getting are made by Breeze, which seems to be a popular company. Hopefuly this isn't the same one NAPA uses. BTW Whats up with the NAPA ones? Do they not use the lock nut? I noticed that t-bolts using normal nuts are as worthless as worm clamps. Either way the local Napa has less parts than my own garage.

Also as soon as I get the money I plan to purchase the NTK wideband sensor (I bought the controller + logger without realizing that it didn't include the sensor), and a million 2.5" mandrel bends to eliminate as many couplers as possible (http://store.racing-solutions.org/inbukit1.html) (that link has, by far, the CHEAPEST bends online).

Yah, I have t-bolt clamps and I love them! On my UICP, they are all 45* bends so I have never blown off one, but my LICP, I have 3 90* bends, not very sharp bends, but still 90*. I have blown off a coupler there a handful times. But whenever they blew off, I just tightened down those t-bolt clamps and I havent blown off a pipe in months!

This is at 18psi, but just on a puny, low cfm 14b :P

Its funny, I only blow couplers when I let off the throttle too fast. The bov may not be functioning properly (I noticed no differance when I capped it off last night...so its not leaking). Considering it was designed to be recirculated, I'm assuming that it requires the vacuum on other other end of the bov to help it open up.

underated

09-13-2006, 03:09 AM

DOHCstunr

09-13-2006, 09:00 AM

Its funny, I only blow couplers when I let off the throttle too fast. The bov may not be functioning properly (I noticed no differance when I capped it off last night...so its not leaking). Considering it was designed to be recirculated, I'm assuming that it requires the vacuum on other other end of the bov to help it open up.

so are you saying that your bov isn't gettign its boost reference from the nintake manifold?

cause it won't work without vacuum.

if you are running a boost only signal to the bov, then it will never open.
cause there will always be as much boost pressure under it as there is over it.
the valve will be held shut by the pressure of the spring.
you need vacuum above the diaphram and boost under the diafram to overpower the spring pressure and cause the bov to pop open.

i really hope i just misunderstood your last post. :shock:

as far as boost leak testing goes,
if you want to do it for pennies.
just build your leak tester(with a pressure regulator on it),
then go to a gas station that has free air.
and do it there.(do it at night when its not busy)

when i did my leak test i bought a $39 1 gallon compressor from wallmart. kept it nice and clean, used it, then took it back.

i bought a bundle of stainless steel tbolt clamps off ebay. i've been running them for over a year and have never had a pipe blow off(even with my 50trim) and have installed and removed most of them several times, not one has rusted, or siezed or anythign undesirable.

think i spent 20 bucks for all of mine but i can't be sure.

there was a guy in the dsmtuners classifieds yesterday selling 10 or so tbolt clamps for 15 dolalrs shipped!!!

Jet Black

09-13-2006, 02:45 PM

if your using flux core wire to weld you can do this...

put either a couple layers of foil or vasaline around the area you are welding and that will cut down on the splattering...

or

after your done welding sand everything excess down or chisel it off

flux core can get pretty messy foil always works for me just make sure you use 2 or 3 layers
also are you sure you got good penatration through the welds? because sometimes there are holes from when you lift the tip out of the weld you just made...

Thats a great idea about the foil. I was using some anti-spatter spray. Though it doesn't work very well.

Ya the penetration was generally a little too good. I would usually end up with a nice big hole. I got sick of trying to grind down the welds, and just went crazy with muffler mender. That has held up much better than I expected (I'm using it on the manifold as well). It effectively sealed all the welds 100%.

so are you saying that your bov isn't gettign its boost reference from the nintake manifold?

cause it won't work without vacuum.

if you are running a boost only signal to the bov, then it will never open.
cause there will always be as much boost pressure under it as there is over it.
the valve will be held shut by the pressure of the spring.
you need vacuum above the diaphram and boost under the diafram to overpower the spring pressure and cause the bov to pop open.

i really hope i just misunderstood your last post. :shock:
as far as boost leak testing goes,
if you want to do it for pennies.
just build your leak tester(with a pressure regulator on it),
then go to a gas station that has free air.
and do it there.(do it at night when its not busy)

when i did my leak test i bought a $39 1 gallon compressor from wallmart. kept it nice and clean, used it, then took it back.

i bought a bundle of stainless steel tbolt clamps off ebay. i've been running them for over a year and have never had a pipe blow off(even with my 50trim) and have installed and removed most of them several times, not one has rusted, or siezed or anythign undesirable.

think i spent 20 bucks for all of mine but i can't be sure.

there was a guy in the dsmtuners classifieds yesterday selling 10 or so tbolt clamps for 15 dolalrs shipped!!!

LOL about the bov. No I hooked it up properly (refferenced off of the plenum). I confirmed this last night, after getting everything nice and clamped together. Only thing is that its not recirculated since I have no room to do so (which I UTTERLY hate!). Since I'm an automatic, I should be able to hold boost fairly well between shifts. Though since I'm venting, its keeps reseting between shifts.

Ya I was totally wrong about the bike pump. The problem was that the leaks were so bad that I couldn't even begin to do a leak test. I clamped down the couplers with t-bolts clamps (some of them atleast), and discovered a few leaks at one of the welds. Some muffler mender, and a hair dryer solved that problem (muffler mender FTW!).

At this point I can hold 5 psi (hold ~ not creep! now it only creeps to 6 psi :shock:), AND let off the throttle as many times as I want. This sounds kinda wierd, but I blew off atleast 3 dozen times last night without a single problem. Not a single coupler popped off the whole night (at 5 psi - not 1 or 2 psi).

The turbo reacts just as I anticipated. Its like an on-off switch. It will fully spool by 5000 at WOT (I figure that will drop after fixing the other leaks). It won't do shit if I want to simply cruise. Which is PERFECT. The pull at an untuned 5 psi is mind-blowingingly-unfucking-believably-rediclously-stupid. At thats only after fixing the intake leaks. I still have to do the intake manifolds leaks.

BUT I am now out of time. Today I am leaving for university, and will be leaving my car at home. So this project will be entering a hiatus for a few months. Even though its not tuned, and its leaking oil like Johnny #5, I decided to leave the turbo in there while I'm gone. When I get back, this will keep me motivated.

Anyways, by no means is this the end to this project. In fact its actually the beggining. I still plan to build up the other block I have, and install the 5 spd. I'll get back to you guys when I'm in university.

Heres a short clip of last nights progress:
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/c218aa3...83b01033705.htm (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/c218aa36-e504-4a24-aaa2-983b01033705.htm)

4-G-rim

09-14-2006, 09:36 AM

Well Good luck Jet Black on the whole college life thing. Maybe this is a good thing to get a little break from the car...this should let your mind settle relax.

Once again..good luck.

Jet Black

09-14-2006, 11:13 PM

Well Good luck Jet Black on the whole college life thing. Maybe this is a good thing to get a little break from the car...this should let your mind settle relax.

Once again..good luck.

Thanks dude. Ya I'll need this time to rebuild my finances. Just to make a point that I'm not in fact done wit this, I just bought 16 NGK wideband sensors. :lol:

seth98esT

09-14-2006, 11:16 PM

LOL where! Price? I need some spare 5 wire Bosch wideband sensors. Ive went through 3 in 1.5 years lol!

Jet Black

09-15-2006, 12:49 AM

LOL where! Price? I need some spare 5 wire Bosch wideband sensors. Ive went through 3 in 1.5 years lol!

:lol: Same place I got my $20 5spd (10k miles) and my $300 engine (41k), Ebay. They are all used NGK sensors. 99% sure they wont work in place of the Bosch, since the Bosch won't work with my controller (http://techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/).

BUT there is some good news: 8 Widebands + CONTROLLERS:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...A%3AIT&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&item=150029803925&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1)

They will probably relist it soon (they did it with this one ~ original reserve was $100). ;)

steveVR4

09-27-2006, 11:27 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>* DO NOT make an open dump with ribbed tubing. </div>

I'd love to see someone substantiate the claims made in that thread. Sounds like COMPLETE BS to me. "The ribs are holding the boost." :roll:

Jet Black

09-27-2006, 12:28 PM

I'd love to see someone substantiate the claims made in that thread. Sounds like COMPLETE BS to me. "The ribs are holding the boost." :roll:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ipcheck)</div><div class='quotemain'>Problem fixed. I used a ribbed pipe which was easy to bend for the dump,the ribs were holding the extra boost, and I guess that's why I was overboosting. I used another pipe (non ribbed) and now boost is corrected to 9psi.

Pictures...

Old Pipe...
http://www.sunshinewindows.com/ac/dump1.jpg

Problem fixer...
http://www.sunshinewindows.com/ac/dump2.jpg</div>
http://my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2...ing#post2257537 (http://my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2257537&highlight=ribbed+tubing#post2257537)

If you got any other stupid ass comments or questions, keep them to yourself.

peanotation

09-27-2006, 01:16 PM

i'll back that up full force. ribbed tubing, especially flexible exhaust pipe, HAS to create pressure further up the source. it's simple physics....

steveVR4

09-27-2006, 02:30 PM

http://my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2...ing#post2257537 (http://my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2257537&highlight=ribbed+tubing#post2257537)

If you got any other stupid ass comments or questions, keep them to yourself.

Hey ASSHOLE. Don't link me back to the thread, I read the whole thing. I said I'd love to see someone substantiate that he was seing 20psi of boost just because of a ribbed dump pipe. If someone can do so, no problem. I was saying his explanation sounds like BS. I didn't say YOU are full of shit, just that I'd love to see some proof. Maybe if the pics worked, we might see that he went from a 1" OD ribbed pipe to a larger solid pipe, etc. Who knows. So if you can pull your head out of your ass, feel free to apologize.

Jet Black

09-27-2006, 06:38 PM

I said I'd love to see someone substantiate that he was seing 20psi of boost just because of a ribbed dump pipe.

I'll try to explain this in the simplest terms possible.

First off lets begin with a simple lesson in English by defining the word substantiate.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>substantiate - sub‧stan‧ti‧ate -verb
1. to establish by proof or competent evidence: to substantiate a charge.
2. to give substantial existence to: to substantiate an idea through action.
3. to affirm as having substance; give body to; strengthen: to substantiate a friendship.
</div>

The competent evidence (or more accurately, empirical evidence) in question was the act itself of swapping out the dumptube. By switiching to a non-ribbed tube of similiar dimensions, the problem was fixed in it's entirety. Simple deduction is enough to prove his assesment. This conclusion is made all the easier when you consider that nothing else was changed (ceteris paribus), so therefore the only remaining suspect is the ribs or pockets. While he may not have explicity made the claim that the dimensions remained the same, I'm assuming that he's not a total dumbass, and therefore can make such a connection between using a different ID piping and fixing the boost problems (which he would have pointed out). Furthermore just exactly how is he supposed to fit on a larger dumptube with the existing wastegate? Do you even know what an external wastegate looks like? The ID of the outlet port cannot be changed. Therefore you cannot simply use a significantly larger dumptube coming from the flange. Of course it is possible that he went out and bought a reducer pipe for the dumptube. But I don't think he smokes crack, so I highly doubt he did that.

Coming back to the point, the ID of the tube can be assumed to be equal to whatever the ID of the wastegate flange was. The wastegate (and in turn, the flange) was choosen based on that paticular application. So if he was using the dump tube with the ID of the wastegate flange, he shouldn't have had any problems. And certainly not a boost spike to more than twice his set pressure level. But instead what he was using was a dumptube that had numerous pockets in it. Pockets can quite easily cause a substantial increase in pressure (much more so when they are located in such a critical point along the system where maximum pressure is achieved...in the bends). They cause a considerable disturbance in the flow characteristics of the gasses, and in turn slow them down (slow exit velocity is also synonymous with increased pressure). On a device whose sole responicibility is to control boost pressure through evacuation of the excess gasses, any back pressure within the evacuation device (...the dump tube) will translate directly into higher pressure. This problem becomes increasingly compounded with increased pressure. That is by far the simplest explanation available.

Oh, and there is the whole empirical evidence thing that I went over...

Understand?

bebopin64

09-27-2006, 07:13 PM

shut down

peanotation

09-27-2006, 09:26 PM

i swear if you were a chick....

steveVR4

09-28-2006, 07:41 AM

Thanks for defining substantiate. So interesting, considering I used it properly already.

Obviously I was referring to some proof outside of his post. Don't believe everything that you read on the intarweb. He could have inadvertantly done something to address the real problem in the process or replacing the dump tube. However, your explanation of it was what I was looking for. :cool:

SLS2000

09-28-2006, 09:00 AM

I'll try to explain this in the simplest terms possible.

First off lets begin with a simple lesson in English by defining the word substantiate.
The competent evidence (or more accurately, empirical evidence) in question was the act itself of swapping out the dumptube. By switiching to a non-ribbed tube of similiar dimensions, the problem was fixed in it's entirety. Simple deduction is enough to prove his assesment. This conclusion is made all the easier when you consider that nothing else was changed (ceteris paribus), so therefore the only remaining suspect is the ribs or pockets. While he may not have explicity made the claim that the dimensions remained the same, I'm assuming that he's not a total dumbass, and therefore can make such a connection between using a different ID piping and fixing the boost problems (which he would have pointed out). Furthermore just exactly how is he supposed to fit on a larger dumptube with the existing wastegate? Do you even know what an external wastegate looks like? The ID of the outlet port cannot be changed. Therefore you cannot simply use a significantly larger dumptube coming from the flange. Of course it is possible that he went out and bought a reducer pipe for the dumptube. But I don't think he smokes crack, so I highly doubt he did that.

Coming back to the point, the ID of the tube can be assumed to be equal to whatever the ID of the wastegate flange was. The wastegate (and in turn, the flange) was choosen based on that paticular application. So if he was using the dump tube with the ID of the wastegate flange, he shouldn't have had any problems. And certainly not a boost spike to more than twice his set pressure level. But instead what he was using was a dumptube that had numerous pockets in it. Pockets can quite easily cause a substantial increase in pressure (much more so when they are located in such a critical point along the system where maximum pressure is achieved...in the bends). They cause a considerable disturbance in the flow characteristics of the gasses, and in turn slow them down (slow exit velocity is also synonymous with increased pressure). On a device whose sole responicibility is to control boost pressure through evacuation of the excess gasses, any back pressure within the evacuation device (...the dump tube) will translate directly into higher pressure. This problem becomes increasingly compounded with increased pressure. That is by far the simplest explanation available.

Oh, and there is the whole empirical evidence thing that I went over...

Understand?

I believe it all! :laughing: :laughing:

And still keeping an eye on this interesting thread. :-D

peanotation

09-28-2006, 09:45 AM

Don't believe everything that you read on the intarweb. He could have inadvertantly done something to address the real problem in the process or replacing the dump tube.

then what the hell is the point of reading anything on this site, or anything, anywhere for that matter

steveVR4

09-28-2006, 10:46 AM

Take everything with a grain of salt. You believe every bit of info that is posted on message boards? :shock: I've got a bridge to sell you. ;) I'm saying, use common sense and don't be afraid to question what you read. You'll either find out that it was wrong, or you'll learn something. Win/win.

You'll notice that I didn't continue to argue for the sake of arguing, like a troll. I legitimately was questioning the claim, and if someone can back it up, then hopefully a few people including myself will benefit from the knowledge.

DryBear

09-28-2006, 01:45 PM

LIES!! Everything on the Intarw3b is TRUE!!11!one1! Father Al Gore said so!!

Jet Black

09-28-2006, 03:29 PM

LIES!! Everything on the Intarw3b is TRUE!!11!one1! Father Al Gore said so!!

Point taken...I guess this is a good time to come out with the truth.

I don't have a turbo kit. This whole thread is a total fabrication by me. In fact Matt doesn't even really exist either. He's just an alternate user account that I made.

Yep the truth sure feels good.

Oh and one last thing. The guy with the 350z and boost problems...ya he made all that up as well. He figured it would really funny to make some totally bs story about how he had massive boost problems and then blame it on the "ribbed tubing". How clever was that?!?! I bet he's still laughing about that.

Am I making this up? Who knows? :shock:

Matrix part 4: TGC

DryBear

09-28-2006, 04:07 PM

I knew it!! The red pill was just a placebo!

Seriously though, have you any updates, or are you in school still?

seth98esT

09-28-2006, 04:12 PM

Haha! I do find it hard to believe that the ribs on the dump would cause an excessive boost creap. I do see how it would cause a small boost creap. I dont really see how it would prevent things from boosting. Maybe I need to click the linkerage :P

Jet Black

09-28-2006, 07:05 PM

I knew it!! The red pill was just a placebo!

Seriously though, have you any updates, or are you in school still?

Still in school, minus the car. Though that hasn't stopped me from buying parts. 16 wideband oxygen sensors for $50? Sure why not! :lol:

Haha! I do find it hard to believe that the ribs on the dump would cause an excessive boost creap. I do see how it would cause a small boost creap. I dont really see how it would prevent things from boosting. Maybe I need to click the linkerage :P

From his description I'm assuming he went into limp mode. The ECU probably triggered this based off his airflow and AFR. Granted the ECU is supposed to ignore AFR during open loop, the 350z (and probably the whole VQ family) have intresting electronics. For one they come stock with wideband oxygen sensors. I would wager that it also has certain safe guards for similiar situations in which the airflow exceeds the available fuel.

More thoughts about the tubing...

The wastegate is a device that is actuated by converting pressure into mechanical work. Its built off the assumption that there won't be any significant restrictions past the outlet. Once the valve opens up the gasses are supposed to evacuated by way of "path of least resistance". Either the turbocharger or the dump tube. In this case the restriction caused by ribbed tubing was significant enough that it created a higher pressure within the tube itself, than that of the turbine inlet. Factor in a large turbine housing which doesn't create much backpressure and you got a path of least resistance through the housing instead of the tube.

Also since you guys can't see the pictures, imagine using your oil drain pipe for the downpipe (or the EGR pipe for the V6 guys). That was basicly what he was using.