Ethanol?

[Blue Ice]

With gas prices soaring, i was wondering if anyone has looked into converting our engines to use ethanol. What it will take and how could we do it. Here in Kansas city there are a couple of places that sell it, and i hear it goes for about 1.89 a gallon where as i filled up yesterday at 3.05 for gasoline.

I know of a local guy that converted his regular car to ethanol. A friend of his said converting a conventional gasoline engine focuses more on air fuel ratio's. Figured i'd get everyones heads here together to start thinking about solutions to this problem.

[seth98esT]

I hear its supposed to be better cleaner gas. But you have to replace every o-ring and rubber hose that comes in contact with the fuel that is not already up to date with the E-85. Not sure what all you will have to replace exactly, but looks to be a lot...

[9G]

that would be cool.

A guy in our school has an old diesel car and it runs on vegetable oil. The prof said that the guy gets his oil from restaurants and store them on his garage.

[ohgrfreak]

when i lived in Iowa, my family only used ethanol, because in Iowa they produce it and it's so much cheaper. We didn't have to do anything to any of our cars, Lexus, Toyota, Honda, Chevys. We just filled up with ethanol everytime and nothing happened for as long as I can remember.

I live in KC, so where are the ethanol pumps? Today regular gas is 3.19

[seth98esT]

When I lived in Iowa, the pumps always said the gas contained a certain percentage of ethenol.

Im talking about E-85 which is 85% ethenol and requires stronger/better rubber hoses, ruber o-rings, ect.

http://www.ethanol.org/e85.html ('http://www.ethanol.org/e85.html')

DSM Tuners thread:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread...&highlight=e-85 ('http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168760&highlight=e-85')

[ohgrfreak]

Presto Conoco – Store #29
649 E. Bannister Rd.
Kansas City, MO 64131
816-333-2433

That's the only one I can find in or near KC.

And thanks for the link, I never knew that there was more than one type of ethanol, I do now remember seeing the term "ethenol blend".

[ChikagoGTZ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ohgrfreak)</div><div class='quotemain'>Presto Conoco – Store #29
649 E. Bannister Rd.
Kansas City, MO 64131
816-333-2433

That's the only one I can find in or near KC. Â*

And thanks for the link, I never knew that there was more than one type of ethanol, I do now remember seeing the term "ethenol blend".</div>

Yeah, my parents live in Leawood, my Mom's new Suburban can use the E-85 so they may test it out. It's 105 Oct. so that's pretty hot shiz https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

[seth98esT]

Yah its pretty cool stuff from what I hear. And you dont have to use E-85, you can swap between the E-85 and regular unleaded. Just will mess up your tune if you have a solid tune for E-85.

[ChikagoGTZ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(seth98esT)</div><div class='quotemain'>Yah its pretty cool stuff from what I hear. Â*And you dont have to use E-85, you can swap between the E-85 and regular unleaded. Â*Just will mess up your Â*tune if you have a solid tune for E-85.</div>

I was planning on buying a 92 VR4 for the winter, maybe I'll rebuild the engine to run on e85....that way a 100% ethanol tune woulnt be too hard to do! https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

[manybrews]

you cant just put it in a car not designed for it..

besides doing damage to the physical parts of the fuel system, ethanol has a different (lower) amount of energy than fuel. the fuel map has to be different, otherwise you get drivability issues, and could suffer major engine damage if run hard. although the car will probably run, it wont run correctly.
cars that are designed for it have various fuel maps for the different fuels.

[ChikagoGTZ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(manybrews)</div><div class='quotemain'>you cant just put it in a car not designed for it..

besides doing damage to the physical parts of the fuel system, ethanol has a different (lower) amount of energy than fuel. Â*the fuel map has to be different, otherwise you get drivability issues, and could suffer major engine damage if run hard. Â*although the car will probably run, it wont run correctly.
cars that are designed for it have various fuel maps for the different fuels.</div>

Ethanol, at 100% will be exactly what they use in top-fuel racing. Beginning in 2006 Indy will be using it, but I'm sure it's been blended to produce some mad power..... I wouldnt really use this in a DSM, since it's corrosive as hell, and wont give good cold start properties. But you are correct, for every 10% ethanol you use, you can lose up to 3% in power loss, due to ethanol having a lower energy per unit. So, with E85, I guess you would lose over almost 30%!! So...I'll stick with good ole non-renewalble power.

I think we should use Methanol M-85, which comes from farm waste (or even human waste)!! Yet still produces 1/2 the emissions of regurlar gasoline.

And little be knownst (thanks to my dad the agriculture expert) Ethanol is actually more expensive than to produce than gasoline, but it's cheaper at the pump due to limited taxing. Didn't know that, did we?

[ohgrfreak]

Now, this will sound totally stupid, but I was wondering if I could fill up with 1/2 or 3/4 tank of regular unleaded and top it off with E-85, that would take the blend of ethenol down a bit, maybe enough to use in a normal car. It'll still save quite a bit of money in the long run.

[manybrews]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ohgrfreak)</div><div class='quotemain'>Now, this will sound totally stupid, but I was wondering if I could fill up with 1/2 or 3/4 tank of regular unleaded and top it off with E-85, that would take the blend of ethenol down a bit, maybe enough to use in a normal car. Â*It'll still save quite a bit of money in the long run.</div>
no.

[Jet Black]

I should really visit this forum more often. Damn intresting conversation you guys are having (had). https://www.thegalantcenter.org/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

[Mante]

Bringing this back to life...

So far damn near any car can take E10 ( 10% ethanol) where as very few can take E85 ('http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php') (85 % ethanol) unless someone has found anything different.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>What is E10? Â*
E10 is 10% ethanol and 90% unleaded gasoline, a fuel blend covered under warranty by every automobile manufacturer that sells vehicles in the U.S. for every make and every model of automobile. Many even recommend its use because of its high octane and superior performance characteristics.</div>

[kiko12010]

if any one is converting to ethanol u also need to drop your gas tank and clean it out complete because e85 suspends water not like gas were it sits in the bottom of the tank

[manybrews]

once again, do NOT USE E-85 in your mitsu! DO NOT.

it is NOT designed for it, will NOT run correctly with it, and WILL damage the fuel system.


that is all.

[6G72gearhead]

Dont be so quick to jump on the E85 bandwagon, sure right now its cheaper but it also takes 3 barrels of oil to produce a barrel of ethanol. And the liberals want us to be dependent on it?

Top fuel drag racers do not use pure ethanol, they are using %85 Nitromethane and %15 Methanol.

Geez Blue Ice where did you find it for 3.05 last I checked the dillons by my house was selling 87 for 2.09 it may be more I have to go fill up anyways. 91 FTW

[Jeffylou87]

I'm not gunna say that gas isn't expensive... cause it is.. but it would cost alot more money to make your car ethanol proof than it is to fill it with 93 octane... Maybe in the span of like ten years.. but not any time soon

[ohgrfreak]

Dont be so quick to jump on the E85 bandwagon, sure right now its cheaper but it also takes 3 barrels of oil to produce a barrel of ethanol. And the liberals want us to be dependent on it?

Top fuel drag racers do not use pure ethanol, they are using %85 Nitromethane and %15 Methanol.

Geez Blue Ice where did you find it for 3.05 last I checked the dillons by my house was selling 87 for 2.09 it may be more I have to go fill up anyways. 91 FTW

Dude, it's like, years later, gas was over 3 bucks a gallon constantly back then. Well actually, having since moved back to Iowa, gas hit 3 bucks again for a couple days a week ago in the central Iowa area, still horrible, the prices aren't going to go down and stay down are they?

[WarmAndSCSI]

I'm actually converting the ol' Galant to run on E-85 because of it's horsepower potential (it has the octane of race gas).

Evo guys have been running it with no problem. Any fuel system designed for ANY percentage of ethanol will work with E-85. A manufacturer isn't going to design a fuel system to be "partially compatible" with ethanol. The 8G for sure is designed to be used with 10% ethanol gasoline, so I'm confident its fuel system can run E-85.

The problem is the tuning. I'll be richening up the mix about 30% in order to get it back to stoich. This should be good for some serious WHP.

Gonna need at least 700cc injectorsto make this happen.

Just watch out for the idiots saying you should be tuning to 9.7:1 AFR. This is not true with a lambda-based wideband - 14.7 or 1.00 lambda will always be stoichiometric on ANY type of fuel unless you can program the wideband for different fuels.

My references:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/showthread.php?t=303832

[ohgrfreak]

um, i don't have the issue with me here, but i have a consumer reports in the house somewhere that states the energy rating for ethanol is signifigantly lower than that of basic pump gas. less power, less miles per gallon. Being cheaper and cleaner are it's only real advantages.

[WarmAndSCSI]

um, i don't have the issue with me here, but i have a consumer reports in the house somewhere that states the energy rating for ethanol is signifigantly lower than that of basic pump gas. less power, less miles per gallon. Being cheaper and cleaner are it's only real advantages.


Many sources make a big deal about E85 having less thermal energy per gallon that a gallon of gas. They frequently draw the false conclusion that you cannot make more power on E85 than you can on gasoline. E85 actually has a higher specific energy than gasoline, and at proper mixtures releases more thermal energy in the cylinder for a given amount of air to burn. Since an internal combustion engines power output is primarily air supply limited this means you can make 5% to nearly 30% more power on E85 than you can on gasoline.

Typical gasoline Thermal energy 19,000 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 12.5:1
Typical E85 Thermal energy 13,475 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 6.975:1
Typical ethanol Thermal energy 12,500 BTU/lb 6.429:1

If you are consuming 100 lbs of air, lets see how much fuel energy you release for each of these fuels using gasoline as the base 100% reference.
100/12.5 = 8 lbs of gasoline @ 19,000 BTU/lb = 152,000 BTU = 100%
100/6.975 = 14.337 lbs of E85 @ 13,475 BTU/lb = 193,189.9 BTU = 127% more heat energy
100/6.429 = 15.555 lbs of Ethanol @ 12,500 BTU/lb = 194431.5 BTU = 128.9% more heat energy

A 5% increase in engine power is common on NA engines with minimal conversion changes, and much higher numbers are possible if compression or boost is used to take advantage of E85's higher fuel octane.


You should read the stuff I posted.

And about the usual hype the media puts out: the reason FlexFuel vehicles get crappy mileage is because their tunes aren't designed to take advantage of the potential of E-85. They are designed to be run on either 85-87 octane gasoline or E-85 which is much higher octane (above 100). This means less timing advance and less power/efficiency when you do run E-85 on a FlexFuel vehicle.

A good tune for straight E-85 can be lucrative for gas mileage and power, though.

[ohgrfreak]

Ahhhhh, that hurts my brain. Sounds like a lot of work and tuning, good luck to you, however I would not have the faintest idea what those numbers mean. It makes more power because the BTU rating release their energy at different points in the A/F ratio? And once properly tuned to that ratio, poof, more power than the actual power rating would lead one to believe?

Why aren't idiot automakers seeing this, I would only assume that this would have caught on better by now if this is the case.

[6G72gearhead]

Dont be so quick to jump on the E85 bandwagon, sure right now its cheaper but it also takes 3 barrels of oil to produce a barrel of ethanol. And the liberals want us to be dependent on it?

Top fuel drag racers do not use pure ethanol, they are using %85 Nitromethane and %15 Methanol.

Geez Blue Ice where did you find it for 3.05 last I checked the dillons by my house was selling 87 for 2.09 it may be more I have to go fill up anyways. 91 FTW

Dude, it's like, years later, gas was over 3 bucks a gallon constantly back then. Well actually, having since moved back to Iowa, gas hit 3 bucks again for a couple days a week ago in the central Iowa area, still horrible, the prices aren't going to go down and stay down are they?

I saw that several months after I posted that.

[WarmAndSCSI]

Why aren't idiot automakers seeing this, I would only assume that this would have caught on better by now if this is the case.

Because all domestic car makers are in bed with the oil companies :roll: And I'm serious. It will be a long time before this country makes a complete move to alternative fuels.