Think I have a ground problem, working on it RIGHT NOW lol

[paulbunyan]

All,
I have a 97 ES. I have 12v at the battery, 12v at the starter. I am now thinking its a grounding problem. This has been going on sporadically for a while. Sometimes my car doesnt want to start. I pop the hood, shake the cables a lil bit, try it again and it works. I made sure to check the battery cable connections and they all are TIGHT. Now last summer, I replaced the battery cable because it had got really corroded and that helped for a while but now I guess since its cold (Im in the DC area) its giving me trouble again.

The only thing I havent replaced or checked are the ground cables. Can someone tell me where they are located? I found this snippet by Seth98EST (Sorry if I got it wrong)

2) Check your grounds. One behind the battery, one that bolts to the transmission to one of the starter bolts, one on top of the intake manifold. Make sure they are connected and not corroded.

Thats what im going outside to check now. If anyone has any other suggestions, etc puhleeeez post them. I took off work today so hopefully I can get er squared away.

bunyan

[fatal1]

cant tell you where they all are, but look at the negative terminal of the battery and follow the lines that go from there...look at the areas of the problem components and follow the cables to check and see... also make sure the terminals themselves are in check and not corroded etc

[paulbunyan]

cant tell you where they all are, but look at the negative terminal of the battery and follow the lines that go from there...look at the areas of the problem components and follow the cables to check and see... also make sure the terminals themselves are in check and not corroded etc

Right! I just checked. The one on top of the manifold looks ok, I still am trying to find where the cable that bolts to the starter bolts up at. I also looked at the ground that bolts up behind the bettery and it looks ok too. I wonder what the best angle is to get to those starter bolts...

I see theres a big cable tie holding together 2 or 3 cables running to the starter. I think its inside of that cable tie but I cant see where it comes out and bolts up at. I think I read somewhere that it bolts to one of the starter bolts. Im going back out now to check it again

[fliegendaffe]

if you think you have ground issues, take a DMM and put one line to the Neg. batt. post and the other to your ground point and see if you read voltage. if you do, you have a bad ground.

[WarmAndSCSI]

Wouldn't it be easy to just measure resistance if he has a multimeter? Multi = more than just a volt meter.

[paulbunyan]

All,
I do have a MM. What should the resistance be from the bolt where the starter cable bolts to to starter to the battery. Ill run out and check that now

[WarmAndSCSI]

Ideally, as close to 0 ohm as possible. You know you have a bad ground connection if it's somewhere above 50 ohm.

[paulbunyan]

Ok,
I cant figure out my fricking MM. I got my cousin coming over shortly. Guess Ill test resistance between ummmm the positive terminal and where the ground wire bolts up to the tranny???

bunyan

[fliegendaffe]

Wouldn't it be easy to just measure resistance if he has a multimeter? Multi = more than just a volt meter.

ohms doesn't mean squat in this sense. he needs to measure for voltage loss.

[WarmAndSCSI]

Voltage drop is caused by resistance in a DC circuit...

[fliegendaffe]

Ok,
I cant figure out my fricking MM. I got my cousin coming over shortly. Guess Ill test resistance between ummmm the positive terminal and where the ground wire bolts up to the tranny???

bunyan


you do that an you will fry you MM. you need to go between the neg post of the battery and the ground spot you are testing.

[fliegendaffe]

Voltage drop is caused by resistance in a DC circuit...

he needs to measure in volts, not ohms though.

[WarmAndSCSI]

Only useful reading he could obtain is by measuring voltage between positive post and the ground post and doing the same at the grounding point in order to determine voltage drop. Guess what, it'll correlate exactly to the resistance dependent on the amount of current the multimeter uses to measure resistance. Ohm's law - it's really quite simple stuff.

To the OP, just measure resistance between the grounding point and the negative terminal. Also, you're not going to blow your multimeter by taking a resistance reading between the negative and positive posts - in fact, that tells you a lot about the health of the battery.

[fliegendaffe]

Only useful reading he could obtain is by measuring voltage between positive post and the ground post and doing the same at the grounding point in order to determine voltage drop. Guess what, it'll correlate exactly to the resistance dependent on the amount of current the multimeter uses to measure resistance. Ohm's law - it's really quite simple stuff.

incorrect. by putting it on the possitive post, it pust current through the DMM which it can't handle and frying it. the reason why you measure between the ground point and the neg batt post is because you're trying to measure a difference in voltage aga voltage drop.

i know all about this and ohm's laws and many of the other laws since i am a mobile electronics installer.

[WarmAndSCSI]

There is no potential between the ground point and the negative post unless electrons are flowing through it. The battery is your source of potential. Just measure the damn resistance, I know what I'm talking about here.

Also since you obviously don't have a firm grasp on what it means to measure the voltage difference between two points in a DC circuit:


Voltage between two stated points

Another usage of the term "voltage" is in specifying how many volts are across an electrical device (such as a resistor). In this case, the "voltage," or, more accurately, the "voltage across the device," is really the first voltage taken, relative to ground, on one terminal of the device minus a second voltage taken, relative to ground, on the other terminal of the device. In practice, the voltage across a device can be measured directly and safely using a voltmeter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltmeter) that is isolated from ground, provided that the maximum voltage capability of the voltmeter is not exceeded.
Two points in an electric circuit that are connected by an "ideal conductor," that is, a conductor without resistance and not within a changing magnetic field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field), have a potential difference of zero. However, other pairs of points may also have a potential difference of zero. If two such points are connected with a conductor, no current will flow through the connection.


And, again, it won't fry the fucking voltmeter. I'm not incorrect. It's not going to draw any current just because you hook it up to a source of potential. Go try it, I'll bet you $100 that the DMM will be fine and you'll just measure the internal resistance of the battery.

[fliegendaffe]

ok mr all so fricken mighty god of knowledge that is always right *rolls eyes*

so you are telling me what i have been taught and experienced colleges doing isn't true?

and you wanna know how you're wrong? if you hook one end up to possitive and the other to negative, guess what is going to happen? CURRENT FLOW. wow, how did i know that one. so if you cause current flow through your dmm, there is no fuse on the side you need your plug on, thus frying it.

[WarmAndSCSI]

Does it really hurt that badly to be wrong? I'm only going to argue something when I know I'm right. Get over it.

[fliegendaffe]

you get over yourself. i'm done arguing this. i know what i know. and i know what i have witnessed. so pull your head out of where ever it is.

peace

[WarmAndSCSI]

Go read about the internal resistance of batteries. That's the ONLY thing you're going to find when you measure the resistance between the two posts; NOT a fried multimeter.

Just because you're apparently going to college for EE or whatever doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

And, yes, it'll draw enough current to measure the resistance. I meant a SIGNIFICANT amount of current. Like more the a few mA - enough to fry the thing.

[fliegendaffe]

keep blabbering warm, no one is listening.

[WarmAndSCSI]

I guess ignorance really is bliss.

[fliegendaffe]

guess your thick headedness is bliss to you..good night

[WarmAndSCSI]

Yes, I am thickheaded because I know from personal experience that hooking a DMM up to a battery and measuring resistance will NOT blow it up. You'll get a reading of the internal resistance of the battery, which is indicative of the storage capacity/health of the plates within the battery. It's more complicated than that, but this doesn't even have anything to do with the topic, so I won't even bother to explain.

I'm done here.

[fliegendaffe]

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

[Fishboy55]

I love Internet fights...they're liking pissing yourself in a dark suit....you get a nice warm feeling but nobody notices...

[Divinity]

Where's the bullshit warnings when you need them :lol:

But seriously, the meter won't fry from doing that, unless it was shitty to begin with

[fliegendaffe]

ok whatever you experts say

[Divinity]

ok whatever you experts say

Indeed.

[fliegendaffe]

Indeed.
sarcasm

[seth98esT]

Try to keep it civil and on topic fellas and ladies.

I have connected my MM to the positive terminal on my battery and nothing happened except the MM read the voltage of the batt? Am I missing something?

[laxinwarrior]

Nope, you are right on Seth. That's exactly what should happen. I've done it with two different multi-meters and both of them are fine.

[bmore303]

I could understand if the OP was taking the MM and directly switching to measuring current, yes, in that case you would fry the MM if you didn't put out the cash for one with a fuse built in. You said it yourself, he wants to measure VOLTAGE DROP, also known as RESISTANCE. Measuring the voltage in those two different locations WOULD give a voltage drop, but doing so is unnecessary.

Remember the ground is often referred to as what? The reference node, and as such it is referenced as 0v. Now what about this 0v? Ohm's law right? V=IR? Measuring across the ground and back to the negative should net you close to 0 ohms of resistance ie. voltage drop.

Anyway what you're saying about the current IS correct in a sense, but that would require the OP to switch the MM to measuring amperes. What happens when you try to take ......

12v
----
0 ohms

= DNE..Right? Well technology isn't that damn smart and generally u have some retarded 0.00001 ohms of resistance resulting in a massive current reading (basic math yo) and frying the MM. Basically, he would have to be trying to measure the current to blow that thing unless there's some other strange issue.


In short...

Warm is right...EEGR major, although that means absolutely nothing. Theory and experience in labs and real situations is another issue as I learned from my internship.

[fliegendaffe]

ok here we go...lets correct all of you.

first of all. there is no formula that is v=ir. I think u mean e=ir. secondly, that is not ohms law, that is kirchoff's voltage law.

then to get a dmm that has a fuse on 12 v setting would cost you hundreds of dollars.

do any of you guys actually understand a 12v dc systems? cuz it doesn't seem like it.

by connecting the 2 battery posts guess what you make? yup, a short circuit.

lastly, do any of you know who Derek Lee is?

[WarmAndSCSI]

Wow, I really am convinced you have no idea what you're talking about. Ohm's law IS V=IR. Voltage (V) is Resistance (R) multiplied by Current (I).

Kirchoff's voltage law simply states the the overall electrical potential of a system must be 0. Nothing more than a derivative of the conservation of energy.

I really hope you do realize that what you're saying is that it's stupid to use a volt meter or DMM to measure the voltage of your battery at the posts - this is complete blasphemy. How do you think most intelligent battery chargers work?

And what does the last question you ask have anything to do with what we're discussing? You're trying to bring something unrelated up in a desperate attempt to make at least one of us look stupid. GG argumentative fallacy. No, I don't know who that is relative to any of what we're talking about.

[fliegendaffe]

actually the currect formula is e=ir. and the true ohm's law is p=ie.

the reason why battery chargers work like that is because of how they are wired.

and actually the last question is very relivent. maybe u should go find out who it is.

[WarmAndSCSI]

Okay, you are completely talking out of your ass. E and V are the SAME DAMN THING. It's just semantics. P=VI describes the power dissipated by a resistor given a certain amount of current. Definitely not Ohm's law. The combination of P=VI and V=IR gives you Joule's first law.

No, intelligent battery chargers (digital) work just like multimeters in that they measure the drop in voltage at the end of the charging cycle. It's not because of "how they're wired." Again, it's like you're talking out of your ass.

And why don't you just tell us, if it's so "relivent."

[fliegendaffe]

actually I am not talking out of my ass. first of all, V is not how it is represented in the formula anywhere but yes it is the same as E. secondly, it is how they are wired.

and thridly, i'll be an ass and tell your idiot self to go look it up. but give u a hint, he is one of the most well known car audio/electronic people out there, and I deal with him on a daily basis. he is my mentor

[WarmAndSCSI]

You're contradicting yourself. You say the formula is E=IR and that E and V are the SAME THING, yet you are saying that V is not represented in the formula. I dare you to make less sense.

Digital battery chargers have an IC programmed to look for a particular pattern in voltage drop. It's far from "wiring" :roll:

And I'm glad you have an awesome mentor... How on earth is this relevant to your own personal knowledge? And check yourself before you call me an idiot ever again.

[boostzealot]

tell you what, im coming in on this a little late and could simply flood this thread with technobabble to make your eyes and ears bleed because...... like mentioned before, experience is the majority of knowledge. thats why most engineers who havent wrenched on anything make things that are not very maintenance friendly.
now my experience comes from seven years of being an electrician on F-16's and am now the lead technician for the entire unit here in Iraq because of it. so in short i will tell you that the only way to "blow up" a multimeter is to put it on a circuit that is extremely out of its range or provide it a current flow that should make 20gauge wire red hot. at the same time the current flow or draw that is provided through a simple 12v automobile circuit (yes simple because thats what it is comparitively) will not "blow up" a MM especially if the circuit is not active. how many static hertz do you think this car's electrical system makes because i gaurantee you that he is not taking these readings with the car on. no one is saying that what you were taught is wrong but maybe your interpretation of the imformation is a bit weak. some people get different stories from the bible but the writing really doesnt change. get me?

[Divinity]

What bmore and warm said are correct. You might want to find another mentor because some of your logic of how things work is a little off unfortunately. I just had to learn all of these formulas because of the projects I'm working on, one thing that kind of bothers me that you swear V=IR doesn't exist. You wouldn't work on my car lol. About the multimeter, what bmore stated is correct. And even with the extremely rare chance of it 'frying', what's wrong with getting another one? :lol:

[boostzealot]

ultimately i think that you think you understand the entire complexity of electronics but amoung us you are doing nothing more than waving your small falacid penis of information around while everyone else is just shaking their heads in disbelief that you just dont see the reality of your misunderstanding.

[WarmAndSCSI]

Wow, I think that pretty much settles it. If you have the gall to argue with somebody who is in Iraq right now protecting your ass and your family, then shame on you. This guy here has a magnitude of experience you'll probably never gain for yourself as a fucking car stereo installer. I beg you to stop here and just admit you don't know what the FUCK you're talking about and that you've got a LOT to learn.

[Fishboy55]

Well I've watched this thread and I think it's time to throw in my two cents.

First: Yea I know who Derek Lee is, He's the 1st Baseman for the Chicago cubs, so what the hell does that have to do with basic electronics? Look it up ass clown. Derek Lee can't be all that, he's not even listed in a Google search.

Second: I say basic electronics, because, fliegendaff, that's what you're throwing at us...basic electronics from a textbook. And while your theory is correct, practicallity will prove you wrong. Yes, Ohm's Law IS V=IxR. Since you're so savvy on the Internet and want us to look it up, try going here: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/Sample_Projects/Ohms_Law/ohmslaw.html
That happens to be the NASA Learning Center, teaching Ohm's Law. Read it, realize you're wrong and come back and tell us so.

Third: Let's see, who has more credibility, a fledgling stereo installer that works at Best Buy, or a US Military ET that works on multi-million dollar aircraft?

Finally: Your book smarts don't mean squat in the real world. Take your DMM, set it to measure current and connect it between the positive and negative posts of ANY battery. Use the AA cell from your sister's vibrator. ANY battery will do. You will NOT blow up the DMM. You might peg the needle and damage the circuitry of an Analog MM, but you'll never smoke a DMM by trying to measure current between a positive and negative potential.

Your argument has no practice. It's theoretical only. Shit, if you want to prove it, go buy a DMM. If it smokes (which it won't) take it back and claim it doesn't work. But stop talking out of your ass about something you really know nothing about. It's making you look stupid.

[fliegendaffe]

warm I will call u an idiot since u didn't even take time to figure out who it is.

correct warm, there is SUPPOSED TO BE no potential between the ground bolt and neg batt post but guess what? if there is voltage drop all of a sudden there is potential. wow, how hard is it to grasp that.

and no, I am not contradicting myself. voltage is represented by E in the damn formula.

[fliegendaffe]

so I am done lossing brain cells to you warm since u can't seem to get it through your head

[Divinity]

Looks like you failed affe :lol: 5 people are telling you that your logic of the situation is wrong, yet you still are calling out Warm, which is a bitch move lol. Stop digging yourself in a deeper hole :lol:

To the OP, did you ever figure out anything or any new developments with your problem? At least 5 of us can help you out lol

[WarmAndSCSI]

warm I will call u an idiot since u didn't even take time to figure out who it is.

correct warm, there is SUPPOSED TO BE no potential between the ground bolt and neg batt post but guess what? if there is voltage drop all of a sudden there is potential. wow, how hard is it to grasp that.

and no, I am not contradicting myself. voltage is represented by E in the damn formula.
Look, if you use a digital voltmeter to measure this voltage drop, the number you're gonna see will be nearly infinitesimal because of the very SMALL amount of current the voltmeter uses to measure voltage. V=IR. It's FAR easier to just measure resistance and get a reading in Ohm and be done with it. Why that is so difficult to grasp, I do not know.

Any way, if you cannot see that you're contradicting yourself by saying that there is no "V" in Ohm's law even though every single other person here knows that it's simply V=IR and that you EVEN ADMIT the "E" in your "Ohm's law" formula is symbolically the same as "V," I think we all know who the idiot is here, but I'm not going to stoop to your level of name-calling.

Like Chip said, there's nothing on Google about this character. Why should I take the time out of my day to figure out who somebody is when it has ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE to me personally other than to kind of prove that you may know what you're talking about, even though it really proves nothing?

[bmore303]

You've been proved wrong by Warm, Seth, Zealot, Fishboy, and I, but yet you still are trying to argue this invalid point. Sigh, Kirchoff's law has nothing to do with this. A book cannot teach you all there is to know about circuits, like I said before. EXPERIENCE! Have I blown the fuse out in a multimeter? No, but lab partners have and I stated why it occurs. The fact that you're still trying to argue E as the variable for voltage is just pointless. WHO CARES! It's ohm's law, all you need for this situation

[RedGalant2k1]

If he "wiggles" the wire and the car starts why bother with a multimeter? (And in turn why waste time arguing the point). There is a loose wire that needs to be tightened.

[WarmAndSCSI]

Good point, but you're just as guilty for pointless arguing over the Internet, so I don't want to hear it.

[fliegendaffe]

Wow, I think that pretty much settles it. If you have the gall to argue with somebody who is in Iraq right now protecting your ass and your family, then shame on you. This guy here has a magnitude of experience you'll probably never gain for yourself as a fucking car stereo installer. I beg you to stop here and just admit you don't know what the FUCK you're talking about and that you've got a LOT to learn.

want to know what i think about thisw so called war in iraq? fuck the war in iraq and fuck george bush.

[WarmAndSCSI]

want to know what i think about thisw so called war in iraq? fuck the war in iraq and fuck george bush.

I'm quoting this just so you can't edit it out.

[fliegendaffe]

and nice warm reported me. hmmm, did i ever say i didn't support our damn troups? i don't think i did. so don't twist my f'n words since you feel like being a P.I.A.

[Divinity]

Keyshia Cole - Let It Go

Just drop it Affe

[seth98esT]

Locked. This thread has about 5 useful posts to the OP, the rest is off topic banter ... Thanks guys, another fine post from our TGC members.