Longevity no balance shafts

[w/oarctic7g]

I have done a ton of reading and studying on the balance shaft delete idea. This is a short summary of my findings and others opinions with BSE. Some of this info came from right here on TGC, many other sites and of course my own motors.
pros-
frees up horsepower because of less rotating mass
fewer moving parts = more reliability
no chance the weak tiny belt can break and tangle in the main timing belt.
cons-
-more vibration feel to driver/passengers,doesnt affect internal balance of
engine.
-some say the rear stub puts to much stress on pump and pump wears
prematurely.
-no oil groove on some replacement stub shafts caused damage in short
period of time.
-to high of oil pressure because of blocked ports

I have seen and read a few methods of accomplishing this, not saying I agree or disagree with any particular one but here they are.
1.simply remove small belt.
-problem with this is you still have a shaft with weights and no other to counteract it and you have shaft rotating at 2x the crank rpm.
2.leave front shaft in place or remove shaft and turn bearings around.
-if you are taking the cover off might as well send a few more minutes and take a few pounds off the motor and block those holes.
3.remove rear and replace with stub shaft or turned down original.
- I was planning on turning the stock shaft down on a lathe until I looked at the surface the shaft rotates on the pump, mine only has 100k on it. I was thinking it was the best way to go as it was supported by 2 bearings this way. Since the bearing contacts are on two different components the chances of getting a perfect alignment is slim I have since changed my mind and am putting a good quality mitsubishi stub shaft in as well as a new oil pump.
Heres the wear on mine.
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/w-oracer/2g%20donor/IMG_1311.jpg

[seth98esT]

I had no balance shafts for a solid 3 years with no problems. My old motor was pulled and was to be put into a Talon, but my friend never finished the project.

If you have too high oil pressure with the BS removed, then just port your oil pressure relief:
http://www.dsmpurity.com/forum/showthread.php?6231-Oil-Pressure-Relief-Porting-mini-how-to

I would NOT use the 3rd party shafts that do not have the oil grooves. Use OEM, or don't do it at all.

IMO, the only reason I would do this is to not have to worry about a balance shaft belt snapping and killing your timing belt. The hp gains are negligible.

[w/oarctic7g]

IMO, the only reason I would do this is to not have to worry about a balance shaft belt snapping and killing your timing belt. The hp gains are negligible.[/QUOTE]

The picture kinda sucks what I am trying to show is the damage on the journal from being slightly cocked from the factory with relatively low miles. Luck or line bore(who's going to spend that kind of money) is the only way to make perfect alignment in my opinion so why take a chance?

[mko]

Its not about HP. Its about rotational weight; less weight = faster revving engine

[DOHCstunr]

yeah. When I yanked my balance shafts it was immediately noticable how much lighter the revs were. the vibrations are only noticable at low idle, and right around 3k rpms. but away from those ranges you wouldn't even notice a difference in vibration.

I used the OEM mirage stubby. As well as the oem mirage spacer(which replaces the balance shaft belt sprocket on the crank with a much smaller and lighter steel spacer.

Its pretty wild how much weight I have off of my engine. 8lb flywheel, aluminum crank pulley, balance shaft deleted.

I left my front shaft in since I did the removal at my old rental house in the winter on my back in the rain on a gravel driveway laying under a tarp lol. It wasn't planned, but when my old oil pump locked up while idling in my driveway(talk about good luck) I didn't have choice cause i wasn't going to tow the car 100 miles back to Louisville.

The key is to use OEM part, OEM gaskets, and Permatex ultra grey for your oil pan. Get a new oil pan if you can afford one, odds are your's is bent or warped anyways. Get a new oil pump front case if you can afford one. This way the new stubby shaft will have a new journal to ride on, instead of the journal that is however many miles old from your original oil pump.

Honestly, I think i have more vibrations from the Prothane motor mounts than from the balance shafts. Its a lot smoother in the summer when the prothanes soften up from the heat. In the winter... its a little rough. You do get used to it though. After a while you won't notice, and for the most part i've never had a passenger even comment on the matter.

[w/oarctic7g]

Here is a slightly better pic. The dark gray line at the bottom half of journal is where it wore in and kind of egged out the journal a bit. It seems as if it could be putting extra pressure on the gears, causing binding and extra wear on case. Possible contributor to DOHC's locked up pump? I know I am taking no more chances.
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/w-oracer/IMG_1318.jpg
much better!
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/w-oracer/IMG_1320.jpg

[DOHCstunr]

the pump i was reffering to was my original pump with original balance shafts. Anything could have caused it. It could have been bearing material that got past the strainer screen in the sump. I've been running no balance shafts for about 5 years now I think. Maybe more. As long as i can remember anyways.

[evil-G-nius]

My engine was built without it and much like everyone else it revs faster. I personally dont have much vibration even at low idle. With the car running, you would never know its on until the fans kick on. I think my oil consumption is because of the increased pressure and I gotta figure out the porting but it is definatly good feeling knowing that piece of shit wont fail....I ruined two engines because of that bastard

[w/oarctic7g]

The other thing I noticed is guys are saying to take the back cover off the oil pump to install the stub shaft. There is no reason to do this if you simply remove the balance shaft cover/cap. I definitely will do the ultra gray pan seal. Last season I used what I thought to be a great gasket, torqued the pan bolts to spec but within just a couple of hours they all had loosened and oil was pouring out.

[seth98esT]

Not sure if I understand. You can leave the front shaft in, but if you don't use the BS belt, you need to remove the rear balance shaft and use the stubby shaft. If you just take off the balance shaft belt and use the stock rear balance shaft, your engine is going to be out of balance and give more vibration then if you used the stubby.

Or are you just talking about not needing to remove the oil pump cover to remove the old shaft? I can't remember if the shafts will come out with the cover on or not, its been awhile.

[DTP]

I hate to be a complete n00b, but what exactly is the purpose of the delete and what gains are there?

How?


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk 'cause I'm awesome

[shortdogg2k05]

Mainly piece of mind that the balance shaft belt will not break and f up your timing. If you are not pulling out the motor or changing the oil pump assembly I would leave it alone.

[w/oarctic7g]

Or are you just talking about not needing to remove the oil pump cover to remove the old shaft? I can't remember if the shafts will come out with the cover on or not, its been awhile.

The large aluminum front cover does have to be removed but you do not have to remove the 4 bolts and screw and separate the pump body from the large front cover just to bolt a stubshaft to a gear.

[99galantES]

Hold on a second so you guys are saying the balance shaft is not needed? Wtf I could've had my car running a long ass time ago if I new this lol. That shaft was always getting stuck and breaking the belt so my car would shut off. I could've just removed it and been ok?

[shortdogg2k05]

Hold on a second so you guys are saying the balance shaft is not needed? Wtf I could've had my car running a long ass time ago if I new this lol. That shaft was always getting stuck and breaking the belt so my car would shut off. I could've just removed it and been ok?
Yep

[evil-G-nius]

yup, but if your car turned off because of this little thing i'd check the engine well before putting it back on the road. Both times my belt snapped, it bent my valves and I lost compression in 3 cyls...its a bitch. But be on the safe side and check everything first just to be sure

[mygalantwasfree]

I have seen and read a few methods of accomplishing this, not saying I agree or disagree with any particular one but here they are.
1.simply remove small belt.
-problem with this is you still have a shaft with weights and no other to counteract it and you have shaft rotating at 2x the crank rpm.

I did the delete using this method. As soon as I can get some more funds, I'm going to buy that stub and remove the rear shaft because my car feels like a magnitude 5 earthquake every time I hit the gas with the current setup. All the interior panels rattle and vibrate annoyingly. Some interior panels are coming loose. I do not recommend this method to anyone else. It takes so much away from the ride quality.

Does anyone know about engine longevity using this particular setup? Someone recently told me that driving it with it shaking like it is could cause the crankshaft to warp and ruin the engine...but I don't know if this person knew what he was talking about though.

[99galantES]

my car is running fine just in my other motor it would get stuck everything else was fine i drove it like that till i got home and it would turn off then i swapped my motor

[rockingout92]

My last engine would vibrate like crazy too, and when I pulled the motor, I found that the balance shaft wasn't even aligned correctly... the motor spun a rod bearing. Good to know for next time that we can just remove the bs altogether.

[mko]

I did the delete using this method. As soon as I can get some more funds, I'm going to buy that stub and remove the rear shaft because my car feels like a magnitude 5 earthquake every time I hit the gas with the current setup. All the interior panels rattle and vibrate annoyingly. Some interior panels are coming loose. I do not recommend this method to anyone else. It takes so much away from the ride quality.

Does anyone know about engine longevity using this particular setup? Someone recently told me that driving it with it shaking like it is could cause the crankshaft to warp and ruin the engine...but I don't know if this person knew what he was talking about though.

REmoving one shaft and leaving the oil pump one there is not a method of deleting balance shafts. It's just half assing the thing. Its no different than broken balance shaft belt would do to the engine. YOu either get the stubby or cut and center the existing shaft and then weld the hole.

[mygalantwasfree]

REmoving one shaft and leaving the oil pump one there is not a method of deleting balance shafts. It's just half assing the thing. Its no different than broken balance shaft belt would do to the engine. YOu either get the stubby or cut and center the existing shaft and then weld the hole.

The reason I chose to remove only the balance shaft belt was because I was really, really short on cash :wink: . It came down to either getting to work or not getting to work; putting food on the table or having an empty plate. I had to improvise and get my ride going again as quickly as possible or I would risk losing my job. That's why I chose to remove only the belt. I didn't half-ass my ride because I was lazy or didn't know how to repair it properly, I just couldn't afford the $75 for the stubby kit. As soon as I can come up with more spare cash, I'll get that kit.

BTW, congrats on the car of the month buddy! :023: It looks sick!

[DOHCstunr]

75 for the stubby kit?

You know the stubby shaft(the only part you NEED) is only $12 brand new OEM mitsubishi Genuine part. that and a oil pump gasket and you are done. You can just leave the front shaft in. Its easier.

[mko]

Theres a free way of doing this. I have done it to two oil pumps now and it works w/o a problem.

Get an angle grinder with a cut off wheel and cut the shaft about 1 1/2 to 2 inches from the base of the pump. The piece left will still have some weight left on one of the side so shave that extra material so the shaft looks round and not oval. After you cut it, there will be a hole right in the middle; get a tap and do the hole then you a bolt in there and spot weld the bolt so it doesnt come loose. Youre done. Its pretty much building your own stubby shaft

[mygalantwasfree]

75 for the stubby kit?

You know the stubby shaft(the only part you NEED) is only $12 brand new OEM mitsubishi Genuine part. that and a oil pump gasket and you are done. You can just leave the front shaft in. Its easier.

That's excellent!!! You wouldn't happen to have a link for that $12 stubby would you? I have a link to a stubby kit on one of my threads for ~$75 with shipping included. That's where I was basing the price in my post:
http://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=17650&cat=0&page=1

MKO, that is also an excellent idea! I did not know you could that; hadn't heard about that technique until just now. I've never taken apart my oil pump to have a look at the BS. I could probably use your technique, I'd just have to find somebody with a welder here in Boone, NC to spot weld the bolt for me. Thanks for the tip I appreciate it!

w/oartic: Sorry man I'm not tryin' to jack your thread!!!

[DOHCstunr]

The part number is MD098626 , call your dealer.

[w/oarctic7g]

Theres a free way of doing this. I have done it to two oil pumps now and it works w/o a problem.

Get an angle grinder with a cut off wheel and cut the shaft about 1 1/2 to 2 inches from the base of the pump. The piece left will still have some weight left on one of the side so shave that extra material so the shaft looks round and not oval. After you cut it, there will be a hole right in the middle; get a tap and do the hole then you a bolt in there and spot weld the bolt so it doesnt come loose. Youre done. Its pretty much building your own stubby shaft

I just did it like this yesterday, thanks works great and it is nice to be able to do it without ordering parts. A 8 x 1.25 tap works perfect and no drilling needed. For the front hole I was hoping to use a freeze plug and read somewhere a 40mm would fit but it is way too big same with 35mm. I guess I still have to order the seal.

[mygalantwasfree]

Back on the original OP topic of the longevity without balance shafts, I would like to add that having no balance shafts in the engine can increase torsional vibration in the crankshaft, which is detrimental to the crank bearings. To what extent the torsional vibration is increased, and just how detrimental it is to the bearings (in the 4G64 engine) is very difficult to tell.

The only real definitive, scientific way to measure the effects of no balance shafts would be to set up an experiment with two identical, brand new 4G64 motors in a laboratory. One engine has both balance shafts, the other has none. Both are run the same # of miles at the same RPM. Then, after X thousand miles on the engines, they're taken apart, and the crank bearings' thicknesses are measured with a micrometer.

^But to be honest, that's never going to happen. So....THE BEST thing you can do for your engine after deleting the balance shafts is to install a liquid-filled harmonic balancer :tumble:

EDIT: You can buy said balancer from Fluidampr for the 4G63 engine. I believe it should also fit ours as well. The part number is 630701. You can order it from Summit Racing here:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLU-630701/

[silver bullet]

that was simply put Mko. i may have to do the balance shafts deleat, cause my motor revs slower than normal, 2500 rpm on up. any clues?

[Shadow19]

no balance shafts for 3 years and over 30k on the engine and ive been boosted for about 6k. Beating it to hell every time i get in it for the past 3k and no issues.