DJ Galant
06-25-2003, 02:46 PM
Again folks, I get a lot of e-mail and PMs reagrding the turbo.
Here it is - please use the search next time. If u search for it first u would find the answers, but some of you take it easy and just ask me rathere than serach first and then ask.
I decided to write this so
every time I don't have to answer the mail every time.
It is sort of FAQ that I get all the time, so I wrote all the answers down.
Due to high volume of question that I get on my e-mail regrarding my turbo setup, I decided to write this so
every time I don't have to answer the mail every time.
It is sort of FAQ that I get all the time, so I wrote all the answers down.
INTRO TO TURBO ESSENTIALS:
I am writing this to the people who have a little or some knowledge about turbocharging their NA (naturally aspirated) motors.
I am using here personal experience and to my best knowledge of what I learned and know myself. I am not a pro or I have never attempt to install any turbo kits myself (not yet :)but I will give u a short explanation how to think when u try to go for the turbo and what parts u will need to buy (in general) in order to make everything working together. I am not responsible for anything u do to your car, and tread this thread as educational and remember to do a lot of more research so u will feel pretty knowledgeable. I am concenrtaing more on the 4g64 engine - for 8 gen Mitsu Galant.
I am turboed so I can tell u straight up- turbo will take time and lots of money to get u running good. But since u decided to go turbo, well then deal with the fact and think of what I want to call “the turbo essentials”.
To make it run properly u will need actual turbo. Do a lot of research on it , perhaps check the compressor map of the turbo that u want to get, and again do some research again but remember the rules - bigger turbo is not always better.I am running small 16g and I am very happy with it. Big 16g may be good choice, though note that at lower boost, small 16g would be better, more responsive , better spooling turbo. I am not a big fan of garret setups myself, simply for not having equavialence for 16g turbo..even smallest t3/t4 setup is more laggy at lower boost than big 16g. T-28 is POS - for sure- friend of mine has it on his eclipse and this bitch is very laggy on his 2.0 liter. am a happy owner of small 16g turbo, and i haven't use 1/3 of its turbo potential yet....Like I said, it depands on boost levels. Full boost is about 2700 ever since I switched to tail wastgate .
Boosting 4.5 psi put me at 181 whp at the dyno befor I changed the wastgate now, it is running better.
Now that u know what turbo u will buy u will need an exhaust manifold (also called heather).
For the 4 cyl guys there is good news hier as far as heather – 2 g (96-99) eclipse/heather will bolt on on our exhaust ports. 1g eclipse/talon will bolt on too, yet this exhaust manifold‘s flow is little more restrictive, and those manifolds are famous for cracking and leaking so the 2g manifold is recommended.
V6 people do research cuz I don’t know if u can use any manifold out of any engine like 6g72 turbo or u just have too fabricate to make it work. I have 4 cyl so I never did any research on that 6g72 engine myself.
Anywayz, figure out what kind of intercooler and pipings u want to go for. Speaking of pipings, don't forget about the BOV (blow off valve) and its location.
4cyl people unless u going with the turbo kit, u will need some custom pipings done, not a big deal, just make sure the pipes are mandrel bent and they are not restrictive as far as flow goes.
V6 peeps – more then likely it applies same to u.
Then u need to decide whether on not u want to rebuild your motor with some forged low compression pistons in there and maybe change your connecting rods for some good ones(highy recommended).
4 cyl guyz – our connecting rods are the same as of turbo eclipses/talons (2g). They are made out of the same material and thay are the same way - meaning that they have toi be storng.
Pistons are weak . I have blown my at 4 psi, but ever since I c hanged them to JE pistons and rings – everytng is cool.
Speaking of which – JE pistons have custom made mine and u u go for them they have already the measurement in their computer. It takes about 3 weeks to make them, just keep that in mind. I know Wesco makes the pistons for us too, and some places have them in stock so there is no wait. They are cheaper too, but everybody must agree- JE is THE BEST.
V6 peeps – sorry don’t know who makes them for u.
Figure out the downpipe - and bigger exhaust is a must people. There is going to be much more exhasut gases going thru - and u don't want to have a lot of back pressure. Back pressure is no gut when u go with the turbo.
If you think turbo u need to think about the fuel system. Remeber that in order to make more power ( more air comming into cylinders) you will need more fuel to burn with it. IT works for any form of form induction. You will need set of bigger injectors, fuel pump , fmu pr fpr, and some kind of fuel and timing contoler. Do a research on that one. Don't try to save money here cuz u will regret it. More power =more fuel , don't u forget that. I was really loosing over 40 whp because I was lean, and couldn’t tune it right. Then after couple of months I found out tha set of injectors that I had was a wrong part number ( way smaller injectors than they should be ) and once I switched them for bigger (460 cc) the car was doing totally awesome numbers at the dyno.
4 cyl people, we have high impendence injectors meaning that we are running voltage 12.8 and up. This is very important info. U can’t put low impendence injectors on our car. That will destroy your ECU shortly. One more info about 4 cyl injectors is their size – stock 210 cc.
V6 peeps – I am not sure about what impendence you have.
Fuel controller that I am using is Apex’I SAFC. U can find a diagram on this board how to install it – and everything is OK with SAFC. It is easy to tune and it does its job.
SAFC on the v6 as far as i am concerned will not work smooth for some reason. Anywayz do your research and u will figure that out.
Last think that i can think of is some kind of boost controller (your external wastgate with proper spring, if u decide to buy one =highly recommended, might to a great job here so u don't have to buy a boost controller).
One word of recommendence – it is a big difference how Deltagate wastgate is working and between Tial 35mm .Tial 35 mm is really good quality wastgate. It doesn’t creep boost, is very responsive and makes a nice sound too. My deltagete used to creep, had lag, was unresponsive and very loud .
On the gauges don't be cheap - they are like your watchguards - they will tell u what is going on with your car - get a must boost gauge, and I wanna say a must too an Exhaust Gas Temperature gauge (know as EGT gauge) since your car was NA before. It would be nice if u could get the ELECTRONIC Fuel and Oil pressure gauge (optional, nice to have). Don’t go with the manual this shit is dangerous.
Last think to say – use copper spark plugs ONLY. I had a detonation because I was using bosch platinum +4!!!!!!!
Also use premium gas ONLY. Good ass Synthetic oil, mount the tranny cooler to keep the oil cooler there. Intake pipe must be nice too. It did a big difference ever since i swithced from the ghetto one - to a nice 3" inch one.
I am sure I forgot about many other things, but I hope that it will be helpful for everybody.
In other words – I wish somebody wrote a thread like this before for me, when I was going turbo.
Be safe, have fun.
Here is the list of the most frequent asked questions that I ask in the e-mail or PMs and answers for them:
1. What parts did you use for the turbo?????
here is my complete turbo system:
Turbo: TDO5 - small 16g
2g eclipse gst exhaust manifold
Custom made adapter
Wastgate: Tial 35mm (previous was running Turbonetics Delta Mark II) External
Intercooler: Spearco Core Front Mount (don't know the part #) 2.25" and 2.5" pipng neck output Air/Air with Stairon End Tanks on
Custom 2.5" exhaust - fabricated at local
Apex'i Twin Chamber Blow Off Valve
Transmission Cooler
Clams, Oil Lines by Turbonetcis
Pipes are mandrel bend, custom made painted black
4" Mitsubishi air filter adapter (aluminum)
OBX 4" air filter
K&N Breather filter
Fuel Control:
460 cc High Impidia Denso Fuel Injectors
Walbro 255 fuel pump
Apex'i Super Air Flow Converter
Fuel Pressure Regulator (Vortech 12:1 FMU)
Gauges:
Autometer Pro Comp Boost Gauge
Autometer Pro Comp EGT Gauge
Engine Internals:
JE custom made low compression turbo pistons
JE rings
Stock Mitsubishi Head Gasket
Spark Plugs:
NGK BKR7E
Other parts:
Greaddy/Trust Manual Boost controller
Greaddy Turbo Timer
2. What Oil do you use?
Engine is running on Mobil 1 Fully Synthetic Oil 15w-50
with High Efficiency Mobil 1 Oil Filter
91 Octane Gasoline
3. How much did ot cost you with the installation?
I got the deal on the install, so i got the deal on the setup. But then I had to buy pistons, rings, injectors, SaFC, and some other stuff that run me a big chunk of money. So overall I spend about 6K on the setup with the install.
4. Who install your turbo setup?
Tony from Final Stage Motorsports in Las Vegas did all the work. He designed the setup.
5. Is the performance of your turbo the same as the ones that Doug and Rippmods make???
My turbo kit is better than any of the vendors that are selling it. First off all I have the Front Mount Intercooler (which I wanted bad).
The price of the purchased set with FMI is outrages. Second of all I have the external wastgate. It is not easy to fit, that is why turbo kits purchased
from the vendors have some difficulties, and often they run problems with the installation.
Third of all, I saved a lot of money on the installation. Usually when u buy a turbo kit from the website and then u try to find a place to install it -
people that are going to put it on are going to charge u a good chunk of money - and what if something is missing, or something doesn't work
all right?
Also the other reason why I went with the custom setup is that I chosed whatever I wanted. I decided what turbo I want, what intercooler I wanna run,
what gauges I want, what OV i wanna see and hear, etc..Of course those decision were discussed with proffesional - who is your advisor. He
gave me a choice and advice.
This topic is it sort of like buying a computer from the store vs. building it yourself. Do u now what I mean???
6. How fast is your car, what is quarter mile, how many pounds of boost are u running?
The car is spooling nice, I am running 4.5 psi right now, but once the dual boost controller will be installed I will boost it more.
Don't know what the qurter mile is right now, I am going even with 97 Eagle Talon turbo 5 sp. With some mods, but stock turbo and intercooler.
The car is really fast when it is actually rolling. I am sort of disapointed of the response from the stop - due to our automatic transmissions.
My first ever dyno only shown 140 whp and 160 ft/lb of torque - due to the lean condition. Injectors were changed and second dyno test after tuning at 4.5psi was 181 WHP and 166 ft/lb of torque.
Not bad for only 4.5 psi of boost. I bet u now, that I changed the wastgate it is even more.
7. What is the air to fuel ratio I should be running on the turboed 4g64?
It should be in low 12s, like 12.1:1 air to fuel ratio to be on the safe side so u don't blow anything. Use wideband oxygen sensors - they are expansive but real, accurate and précised tuning devices.
Take care.
[u]8. What did u use for the oil feed and oil return?
I used and oil feed line and return by turbonetcis - don't get cheap here - use a nice quality lines. For the install for feed - we hooked it up to the oil send unit lthat is located right by the oil pan. For the oil return, we drilled a whole in the oil pan and put a fitting in there.
[u]9. LINKS:
Read also "There goes my turbo" post.
http://www.clubtgc.org/forum/viewtopic.php...der=asc&start=0 ('http://www.clubtgc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=338&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0')
Check out this web site - 4g64 turbo page, where u can exactly find the part numbers and read some stuff about it.
http://www.4g64.150m.com/turbo.html ('http://www.4g64.150m.com/turbo.html')
If u have any technical issues contact Curt V. Shambeau ([email protected]) - he is really helpful guy and I am sure he will help u out.
Here it is - please use the search next time. If u search for it first u would find the answers, but some of you take it easy and just ask me rathere than serach first and then ask.
I decided to write this so
every time I don't have to answer the mail every time.
It is sort of FAQ that I get all the time, so I wrote all the answers down.
Due to high volume of question that I get on my e-mail regrarding my turbo setup, I decided to write this so
every time I don't have to answer the mail every time.
It is sort of FAQ that I get all the time, so I wrote all the answers down.
INTRO TO TURBO ESSENTIALS:
I am writing this to the people who have a little or some knowledge about turbocharging their NA (naturally aspirated) motors.
I am using here personal experience and to my best knowledge of what I learned and know myself. I am not a pro or I have never attempt to install any turbo kits myself (not yet :)but I will give u a short explanation how to think when u try to go for the turbo and what parts u will need to buy (in general) in order to make everything working together. I am not responsible for anything u do to your car, and tread this thread as educational and remember to do a lot of more research so u will feel pretty knowledgeable. I am concenrtaing more on the 4g64 engine - for 8 gen Mitsu Galant.
I am turboed so I can tell u straight up- turbo will take time and lots of money to get u running good. But since u decided to go turbo, well then deal with the fact and think of what I want to call “the turbo essentials”.
To make it run properly u will need actual turbo. Do a lot of research on it , perhaps check the compressor map of the turbo that u want to get, and again do some research again but remember the rules - bigger turbo is not always better.I am running small 16g and I am very happy with it. Big 16g may be good choice, though note that at lower boost, small 16g would be better, more responsive , better spooling turbo. I am not a big fan of garret setups myself, simply for not having equavialence for 16g turbo..even smallest t3/t4 setup is more laggy at lower boost than big 16g. T-28 is POS - for sure- friend of mine has it on his eclipse and this bitch is very laggy on his 2.0 liter. am a happy owner of small 16g turbo, and i haven't use 1/3 of its turbo potential yet....Like I said, it depands on boost levels. Full boost is about 2700 ever since I switched to tail wastgate .
Boosting 4.5 psi put me at 181 whp at the dyno befor I changed the wastgate now, it is running better.
Now that u know what turbo u will buy u will need an exhaust manifold (also called heather).
For the 4 cyl guys there is good news hier as far as heather – 2 g (96-99) eclipse/heather will bolt on on our exhaust ports. 1g eclipse/talon will bolt on too, yet this exhaust manifold‘s flow is little more restrictive, and those manifolds are famous for cracking and leaking so the 2g manifold is recommended.
V6 people do research cuz I don’t know if u can use any manifold out of any engine like 6g72 turbo or u just have too fabricate to make it work. I have 4 cyl so I never did any research on that 6g72 engine myself.
Anywayz, figure out what kind of intercooler and pipings u want to go for. Speaking of pipings, don't forget about the BOV (blow off valve) and its location.
4cyl people unless u going with the turbo kit, u will need some custom pipings done, not a big deal, just make sure the pipes are mandrel bent and they are not restrictive as far as flow goes.
V6 peeps – more then likely it applies same to u.
Then u need to decide whether on not u want to rebuild your motor with some forged low compression pistons in there and maybe change your connecting rods for some good ones(highy recommended).
4 cyl guyz – our connecting rods are the same as of turbo eclipses/talons (2g). They are made out of the same material and thay are the same way - meaning that they have toi be storng.
Pistons are weak . I have blown my at 4 psi, but ever since I c hanged them to JE pistons and rings – everytng is cool.
Speaking of which – JE pistons have custom made mine and u u go for them they have already the measurement in their computer. It takes about 3 weeks to make them, just keep that in mind. I know Wesco makes the pistons for us too, and some places have them in stock so there is no wait. They are cheaper too, but everybody must agree- JE is THE BEST.
V6 peeps – sorry don’t know who makes them for u.
Figure out the downpipe - and bigger exhaust is a must people. There is going to be much more exhasut gases going thru - and u don't want to have a lot of back pressure. Back pressure is no gut when u go with the turbo.
If you think turbo u need to think about the fuel system. Remeber that in order to make more power ( more air comming into cylinders) you will need more fuel to burn with it. IT works for any form of form induction. You will need set of bigger injectors, fuel pump , fmu pr fpr, and some kind of fuel and timing contoler. Do a research on that one. Don't try to save money here cuz u will regret it. More power =more fuel , don't u forget that. I was really loosing over 40 whp because I was lean, and couldn’t tune it right. Then after couple of months I found out tha set of injectors that I had was a wrong part number ( way smaller injectors than they should be ) and once I switched them for bigger (460 cc) the car was doing totally awesome numbers at the dyno.
4 cyl people, we have high impendence injectors meaning that we are running voltage 12.8 and up. This is very important info. U can’t put low impendence injectors on our car. That will destroy your ECU shortly. One more info about 4 cyl injectors is their size – stock 210 cc.
V6 peeps – I am not sure about what impendence you have.
Fuel controller that I am using is Apex’I SAFC. U can find a diagram on this board how to install it – and everything is OK with SAFC. It is easy to tune and it does its job.
SAFC on the v6 as far as i am concerned will not work smooth for some reason. Anywayz do your research and u will figure that out.
Last think that i can think of is some kind of boost controller (your external wastgate with proper spring, if u decide to buy one =highly recommended, might to a great job here so u don't have to buy a boost controller).
One word of recommendence – it is a big difference how Deltagate wastgate is working and between Tial 35mm .Tial 35 mm is really good quality wastgate. It doesn’t creep boost, is very responsive and makes a nice sound too. My deltagete used to creep, had lag, was unresponsive and very loud .
On the gauges don't be cheap - they are like your watchguards - they will tell u what is going on with your car - get a must boost gauge, and I wanna say a must too an Exhaust Gas Temperature gauge (know as EGT gauge) since your car was NA before. It would be nice if u could get the ELECTRONIC Fuel and Oil pressure gauge (optional, nice to have). Don’t go with the manual this shit is dangerous.
Last think to say – use copper spark plugs ONLY. I had a detonation because I was using bosch platinum +4!!!!!!!
Also use premium gas ONLY. Good ass Synthetic oil, mount the tranny cooler to keep the oil cooler there. Intake pipe must be nice too. It did a big difference ever since i swithced from the ghetto one - to a nice 3" inch one.
I am sure I forgot about many other things, but I hope that it will be helpful for everybody.
In other words – I wish somebody wrote a thread like this before for me, when I was going turbo.
Be safe, have fun.
Here is the list of the most frequent asked questions that I ask in the e-mail or PMs and answers for them:
1. What parts did you use for the turbo?????
here is my complete turbo system:
Turbo: TDO5 - small 16g
2g eclipse gst exhaust manifold
Custom made adapter
Wastgate: Tial 35mm (previous was running Turbonetics Delta Mark II) External
Intercooler: Spearco Core Front Mount (don't know the part #) 2.25" and 2.5" pipng neck output Air/Air with Stairon End Tanks on
Custom 2.5" exhaust - fabricated at local
Apex'i Twin Chamber Blow Off Valve
Transmission Cooler
Clams, Oil Lines by Turbonetcis
Pipes are mandrel bend, custom made painted black
4" Mitsubishi air filter adapter (aluminum)
OBX 4" air filter
K&N Breather filter
Fuel Control:
460 cc High Impidia Denso Fuel Injectors
Walbro 255 fuel pump
Apex'i Super Air Flow Converter
Fuel Pressure Regulator (Vortech 12:1 FMU)
Gauges:
Autometer Pro Comp Boost Gauge
Autometer Pro Comp EGT Gauge
Engine Internals:
JE custom made low compression turbo pistons
JE rings
Stock Mitsubishi Head Gasket
Spark Plugs:
NGK BKR7E
Other parts:
Greaddy/Trust Manual Boost controller
Greaddy Turbo Timer
2. What Oil do you use?
Engine is running on Mobil 1 Fully Synthetic Oil 15w-50
with High Efficiency Mobil 1 Oil Filter
91 Octane Gasoline
3. How much did ot cost you with the installation?
I got the deal on the install, so i got the deal on the setup. But then I had to buy pistons, rings, injectors, SaFC, and some other stuff that run me a big chunk of money. So overall I spend about 6K on the setup with the install.
4. Who install your turbo setup?
Tony from Final Stage Motorsports in Las Vegas did all the work. He designed the setup.
5. Is the performance of your turbo the same as the ones that Doug and Rippmods make???
My turbo kit is better than any of the vendors that are selling it. First off all I have the Front Mount Intercooler (which I wanted bad).
The price of the purchased set with FMI is outrages. Second of all I have the external wastgate. It is not easy to fit, that is why turbo kits purchased
from the vendors have some difficulties, and often they run problems with the installation.
Third of all, I saved a lot of money on the installation. Usually when u buy a turbo kit from the website and then u try to find a place to install it -
people that are going to put it on are going to charge u a good chunk of money - and what if something is missing, or something doesn't work
all right?
Also the other reason why I went with the custom setup is that I chosed whatever I wanted. I decided what turbo I want, what intercooler I wanna run,
what gauges I want, what OV i wanna see and hear, etc..Of course those decision were discussed with proffesional - who is your advisor. He
gave me a choice and advice.
This topic is it sort of like buying a computer from the store vs. building it yourself. Do u now what I mean???
6. How fast is your car, what is quarter mile, how many pounds of boost are u running?
The car is spooling nice, I am running 4.5 psi right now, but once the dual boost controller will be installed I will boost it more.
Don't know what the qurter mile is right now, I am going even with 97 Eagle Talon turbo 5 sp. With some mods, but stock turbo and intercooler.
The car is really fast when it is actually rolling. I am sort of disapointed of the response from the stop - due to our automatic transmissions.
My first ever dyno only shown 140 whp and 160 ft/lb of torque - due to the lean condition. Injectors were changed and second dyno test after tuning at 4.5psi was 181 WHP and 166 ft/lb of torque.
Not bad for only 4.5 psi of boost. I bet u now, that I changed the wastgate it is even more.
7. What is the air to fuel ratio I should be running on the turboed 4g64?
It should be in low 12s, like 12.1:1 air to fuel ratio to be on the safe side so u don't blow anything. Use wideband oxygen sensors - they are expansive but real, accurate and précised tuning devices.
Take care.
[u]8. What did u use for the oil feed and oil return?
I used and oil feed line and return by turbonetcis - don't get cheap here - use a nice quality lines. For the install for feed - we hooked it up to the oil send unit lthat is located right by the oil pan. For the oil return, we drilled a whole in the oil pan and put a fitting in there.
[u]9. LINKS:
Read also "There goes my turbo" post.
http://www.clubtgc.org/forum/viewtopic.php...der=asc&start=0 ('http://www.clubtgc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=338&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0')
Check out this web site - 4g64 turbo page, where u can exactly find the part numbers and read some stuff about it.
http://www.4g64.150m.com/turbo.html ('http://www.4g64.150m.com/turbo.html')
If u have any technical issues contact Curt V. Shambeau ([email protected]) - he is really helpful guy and I am sure he will help u out.