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Timing...
I am currently doing my timing with my '63t. Heres what the timing looked like before I turned the crank:
http://img4.imgspot.com/u/04/188/16/cams.jpg
Cam Gears
http://img4.imgspot.com/u/04/188/16/silent.jpg
Silent shaft sprocket
http://img4.imgspot.com/u/04/188/16/crank.jpg
Crank sprocket
http://img4.imgspot.com/u/04/188/16/oil.jpg
Oil pump sprocket
This was before I turned the crank 6 times. After turning the crank the oil pump sprocket is out of time. Everything else lines up perfectly but the oil pump sprocket will be in about the 3'o clock position. So something is wrong. Should the exhaust cam gear be moved advanced a tooth?
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So I went back out and turned the crank some more and everything lined up again. Amazing haha. Hows it look?
http://img4.imgspot.com/u/04/188/16/cams2.jpg
http://img4.imgspot.com/u/04/188/16/cams3.jpg
Cam Gears
http://img4.imgspot.com/u/04/188/16/silent22.jpg
Silent shaft sprocket
http://img4.imgspot.com/u/04/188/16/crank2.jpg
Crank sprocket
http://img4.imgspot.com/u/04/188/16/oil2.jpg
Oil pump sprocket
http://img4.imgspot.com/u/04/188/16/atuot.jpg
And the auto tensioner and the tensioner arm are pretty snug, how do I loosen that? Isnt there supposed to be a small gap(I forget the exact number)?
First time doing a tbelt job if you couldnt tell
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You have gone where I hope to never go... Glad you got it lined up. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...ault/smile.gif
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>And the auto tensioner and the tensioner arm are pretty snug, how do I loosen that? Isnt there supposed to be a small gap(I forget the exact number)? </div>
i believe the gap is how much of the cylinder of the tensioner is sticking out of its body. if there was a gap between the two, it wouldn't be very effective at keeping tension, now would it? https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...ult/tongue.gif
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Yah I think it is aligned ok for now but the stud on the auto tensioner is sticking out 7/16" and its supposed to be 5/32-3/16"
Is it too tight if its 7/16"?
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it would probably be a good idea to correct it so that the tensioner doesn't fail prematurely, but personally, i never got it right, i gave up after a few tries lol if it kills my engine, it's just an excuse to get built :wink: besides, i figured i'd be doing a headgasket swap within a year or two max.[/i]
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best idea is to get brand new from factory auto tensioner, idler pulley, and tensioner pulley, as well as balance shaft tensioner pulley unless your removing the balance shaft. Specially if your engine had high miles on it. I know too many stories of timing slipping due to auto tensioner failure.
As for timing things dont line up cause of gearing, line up the crank gear on its knotch first and then look at the oil pump if its not on its mark, crank the car over again, keep doing this until both the crank and oil pump are on their timing marks. At that point the fron balance shaft should be dead on its mark, and the cams should be dead on their marks too, if not timing isnt right. While you have engine out PULL BALANCE SHAFTS!
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I bought a new auto tensioner and belts. The idler and tensioner pulleys both looked in good condition. I looked at getting a balance shaft eliminator kit but it looked like too much work...
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(seth98esT)</div><div class='quotemain'>I bought a new auto tensioner and belts. Â*The idler and tensioner pulleys both looked in good condition. Â*I looked at getting a balance shaft eliminator kit but it looked like too much work...</div>
Its defintly not a lot of work with the engine already out, thats for sure. And defintly worth it when you weigh it against broken bshaftbelt and possible destroyed engine.. Not to mention performance gains.
If you have any idea how many miles are on the engine, if its more then 70-80k it would be a good idea to change the pullies, if they bind your dead. Too risky to skimp on timing parts $20 pulley could save a $5 grand engine build.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JiP)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(seth98esT)</div><div class='quotemain'>I bought a new auto tensioner and belts. Â*The idler and tensioner pulleys both looked in good condition. Â*I looked at getting a balance shaft eliminator kit but it looked like too much work...</div>
Its defintly not a lot of work with the engine already out, thats for sure. And defintly worth it when you weigh it against broken bshaftbelt and possible destroyed engine.. Not to mention performance gains.
If you have any idea how many miles are on the engine, if its more then 70-80k it would be a good idea to change the pullies, if they bind your dead. Too risky to skimp on timing parts $20 pulley could save a $5 grand engine build.</div>
I say completely the opposite.
you gain nothing but vibration. there is no HP gain. if youre worried about a broken balance belt, do this; CHANGE IT. change your timing belts at the recommended 60k service, and you have nothing to worry about.
the balance shaft eliminating kits are a joke to anyone that actually knows these cars. no one would ever install one in anything but a 100 percent race track car, and even then you gain nothing.
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ignore him, he works for satan, he has to say that! :laughing:
You can use geniune mitsu parts to eliminate the balance shafts I got the part numbers somewhere...I know seth is on 4g64 and they are all pro balance shaft removal sethie will get brainwashed by them if this group dont cut it https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...ault/laugh.gif
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Yah Ive read about it a lot on DSMTuners and they havent complained much about vibration. Most of them like it haha. I probably wont do it now, I bought a new balance shaft belt already haha
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a little bit of vibration vs. higher risk of pistons meeting the valves.. hmm.. i think that's a no-brainer..
most agree that it is worth it to make the engine just a little bit more reliable. don't believe any of this crap that you hear, such as "the balance shaft eliminating kits are a joke to anyone that actually knows these cars." anyone who truly knows these cars, ie. not a dime a dozen mitsu tech who only knows what he is spoon fed, but people who have actually tried it knows that there is great benefit in eliminating anything on the engine that is unnecessary. especially when it is rotating mass, driven by the crank (which does mean, yes it robs HP, although minimal), and moreso when it is driven by a belt that is known to break, and in the process kill the timing belt (which i'm sure we all know what harm that causes).
yeah, if you can live with having to change 2 belts everytime you do a timing belt change, and the increased chance of one of those breaking, and you are immensely bothered by a car vibrating, roaring, or showing any balls for that matter, there's no reason to eliminate them. but personally, i would go with the guys who DO know what they are talking about, you know, those guys that build engines for racing, not for grocery-getting, after all, i didn't swap my engine to be able to get my groceries faster (although that is an added bonus? :wink: ).
you know what, i'm sick of hearing all this crap about "oh, don't mess with that, mitsu put it there for a reason," or "don't you think the engineers know what they were doing?" well, the simple answer to the second question is NO! just take a look through the damn recall list, try to tell me they made a perfect car. and if you're gonna spout this crap about "mitsu techs know best," then don't mod your damn car unless you use only ralliart parts! dealership workers are not some special, above human, superior beings, they make mistakes just like everyone else, and the same goes with engineers. you wanna know what mistake they made here? they didn't balance the crank properly, and so they need a stupid balance shaft to cancel out the vibrations so you don't feel them. if you really want it not to vibrate, blueprint and balance the crank, that would actually be a good thing. do you honestly think that a mitsu tech, in the USA where we have no race support from mitsubishi, is going to know a damn thing about performance that someone else wouldn't know?
mitsu may train its techs to diagnose problems, but we have good people in our dsm community who have dissected, and built up numerous engines, and can tell you a hell of a lot more about the mitsu engines than any mitsu tech would ever be able to tell you. and probably even more than a mitsu engineer could tell you (after all, he is legally bound to keep the plans from getting out, after all, they wouldn't want us to find out the true cause of crankwalk, now would they?)
the people who say don't get a balance shaft eliminating kit in a daily driven car better not be getting prothane mounts either. your stock mounts are soft for a reason, to keep you from feeling the engine vibrations. sound familiar? oh yeah, that's what the balance shaft is there. and you better not stiffen the suspension, because the stock suspension is like that for a reason, to keep you from feeling the road vibration. and don't forget suspension bushings, and shifter bushings.
btw, a lot of people would install a balance shaft eliminating kit in a daily driven car, and to top it all off, they (the good ones atleast) are made with mitsubishi parts (as JIP said as well)!
did you ever stop and think, "hey, maybe the real reason is stupid?" for example, maybe the reason is to save money, by putting out sub-par parts, like a poorly machined crank, and then hide it with a balance shaft so people don't complain about vibrations? incase you didn't notice, these cars weren't given to us in a performance orientation, if you want it to perform better, you have to change a whole lot of crap from how it was stock.
so please, the next time someone wants to say some crap about how mitsubishi engineered their car perfectly, get off of this damn forum, make sure your car is completely stock, and never think about making your car fast again. if you want a fast car, do yourself a favor and buy a corvette, as we all know they are the fastest car on the road since they were engineered perfectly :wink:
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With that said... manybrews has helped out myself and many others with several other tech-related problems.
Everyone's always going to have their own opinions. :?
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon)</div><div class='quotemain'>With that said... manybrews has helped out myself and many others with several other tech-related problems.
Everyone's always going to have their own opinions. Â* :?</div>
Defintly. Manybrews still knows his shit. While mitsubishi itself is useless and will tell you, you cant headswap, you cant do this you cant do that, THEY HAVE TO. Technically If manybrews said sure go ahead remove the balance shafts blablabla and someone bitches he can lose his job. He has to side with mitsu.
Its just our job to prove them all wrong =D
However you can't say he doesnt lend a large amount of support to people on this group that are having problems, he has helped me plenty. You just dont PM asking him about turboing the 4g64 or headswapping =D
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sabzi5858)</div><div class='quotemain'>a little bit of vibration vs. higher risk of pistons meeting the valves.. hmm.. i think that's a no-brainer..
most agree that it is worth it to make the engine just a little bit more reliable. Â*don't believe any of this crap that you hear, such as "the balance shaft eliminating kits are a joke to anyone that actually knows these cars." Â*anyone who truly knows these cars, ie. not a dime a dozen mitsu tech who only knows what he is spoon fed, but people who have actually tried it knows that there is great benefit in eliminating anything on the engine that is unnecessary. Â*especially when it is rotating mass, driven by the crank (which does mean, yes it robs HP, although minimal), and moreso when it is driven by a belt that is known to break, and in the process kill the timing belt (which i'm sure we all know what harm that causes).
</div>
obviously, youve never done it. I have. Its a rediculous "mod" that doesn NOTHING. the engines were ENGINEERED with the balance shafts. they are not internally balanced. the car is also not the LEAST bit more reliable, as if youre ignorant enough to ignore the timing belt interval, you deserve what you get.
You loose approximately 1 to 2 HP with the balance shafts in there.
of course, you ignore the larger problem of removing them. On high RPM engines, the oil pump gear has been known to wobble out the housing laterally due to the missing support of the balance shaft. Of course, you knew that because youve probably worked on what, 1 mitsu in your life?
Plus, the added vibration (and it is EXTREEMLY obvious to all but the dimmest of bulbs) is a constant source of fatigue not only to the driver, but every single fastener on the engine.
but dont listen to me, Ive only made a 430 HP eclipse complete with balance shafts thats had over 15000 hard miles placed on it without any failure whatsoever.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
yeah, if you can live with having to change 2 belts everytime you do a timing belt change, and the increased chance of one of those breaking, and you are immensely bothered by a car vibrating, roaring, or showing any balls for that matter, there's no reason to eliminate them. Â*but personally, i would go with the guys who DO know what they are talking about, you know, those guys that build engines for racing, not for grocery-getting, after all, i didn't swap my engine to be able to get my groceries faster (although that is an added bonus? Â*:wink: ).</div>
hell then, why not buy solid motor mounts, spur cut gears, and just set the car on its bump stops.
i mean, you are a tough guy, arent you? Why bother using technological advancements when you can have an absolutly shitty experience behind the wheel of your car.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
you know what, i'm sick of hearing all this crap about "oh, don't mess with that, mitsu put it there for a reason," or "don't you think the engineers know what they were doing?" well, the simple answer to the second question is NO! Â*just take a look through the damn recall list, try to tell me they made a perfect car. Â*and if you're gonna spout this crap about "mitsu techs know best," then don't mod your damn car unless you use only ralliart parts! Â*dealership workers are not some special, above human, superior beings, they make mistakes just like everyone else, and the same goes with engineers. Â*you wanna know what mistake they made here? Â*they didn't balance the crank properly, and so they need a stupid balance shaft to cancel out the vibrations so you don't feel them. Â*if you really want it not to vibrate, blueprint and balance the crank, that would actually be a good thing. Â*do you honestly think that a mitsu tech, in the USA where we have no race support from mitsubishi, is going to know a damn thing about performance that someone else wouldn't know?
</div>
you really are a fool, arent you?
suit yourself; "mod away". Ill be laughing at you from the end of the track with my car thats pleasant to drive and doesnt break down.
by the way, mitsu patented the balance shaft in 1971. EVERY car company uses them today, and everyone needs to pay mitsu for the right to do so.
of course, you know best. every car manufacturer must be wrong. people love vibration.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
mitsu may train its techs to diagnose problems, but we have good people in our dsm community who have dissected, and built up numerous engines, and can tell you a hell of a lot more about the mitsu engines than any mitsu tech would ever be able to tell you. Â*and Â*probably even more than a mitsu engineer could tell you (after all, he is legally bound to keep the plans from getting out, after all, they wouldn't want us to find out the true cause of crankwalk, now would they?)
</div>
when any of them build a reliable 430HP 2.0 liter using stock parts and DONT break it, you can say something.
till then, I suggest you shove it.
I love the conspiricy theory, by the way.. makes you sound even more rediculous.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
the people who say don't get a balance shaft eliminating kit in a daily driven car better not be getting prothane mounts either. Â*your stock mounts are soft for a reason, to keep you from feeling the engine vibrations. Â*sound familiar? oh yeah, that's what the balance shaft is there. Â*and you better not stiffen the suspension, because the stock suspension is like that for a reason, to keep you from feeling the road vibration. Â*and don't forget suspension bushings, and shifter bushings.
</div>
exactly. these are daily driven cars. not race cars.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
btw, a lot of people would install a balance shaft eliminating kit in a daily driven car, and to top it all off, they (the good ones atleast) are made with mitsubishi parts (as JIP said as well)!
did you ever stop and think, "hey, maybe the real reason is stupid?" Â*for example, maybe the reason is to save money, by putting out sub-par parts, like a poorly machined crank, and then hide it with a balance shaft so people don't complain about vibrations? Â*incase you didn't notice, these cars weren't given to us in a performance orientation, if you want it to perform better, you have to change a whole lot of crap from how it was stock.</div>
you have no idea how cars actually work, do you?
apparently not.
Never mind the fact that 4 cylinder inline engines are naturally unbalanced. never mind the fact that you CANT eliminate all 1st or second order vibrations from one without balance shafts. lets just take out parts for the helluvit, 'cause it may gain 2 HP.
also, if you want a performance car, why in the hell would you not buy one initially? thats like buying a corvette, then bitching it doesnt hold enough people.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JiP)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon)</div><div class='quotemain'>With that said... manybrews has helped out myself and many others with several other tech-related problems.
Everyone's always going to have their own opinions. Â* :?</div>
Defintly. Manybrews still knows his shit. While mitsubishi itself is useless and will tell you, you cant headswap, you cant do this you cant do that, THEY HAVE TO. Technically If manybrews said sure go ahead remove the balance shafts blablabla and someone bitches he can lose his job. He has to side with mitsu.
</div>
no i dont. there is no "conspiricy" going on here. I have no reason to say anything pro or con about mitsu.
I just suggest things that make sense. Taking out balance shafts doesnt.
A DOHC head swap here also makes little sense. for the amount of headaches you would endure, the minimal gains are not worth it.
Im giving advice and opinions only. there is certainly nothing legitimate about any of it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
However you can't say he doesnt lend a large amount of support to people on this group that are having problems, he has helped me plenty. Â*You just dont PM asking him about turboing the 4g64 or headswapping =D</div>
it just doesnt make sense most of the time.
Its easier on the wits and pocketbook to START with what you want, meaning buy a turbocharged car and start there.
Ive offered plenty of support to those that have altered their cars, but my opinion will never change on what the best starting point for building a racer is.
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starting with an already turbo'd car is not fun. I'm the monster garage kinda guy who'd rather take a car and turn it into a speedboat instead of simply buying a speedboat. Its just more fun, learn more, and in the end have somethin a lil more unique.
but this is all gettin outa hand now anyway..someone lock this post and call it a day
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