Running Absurdly rich under boost!

ok so I just started working on my galant yesterday after a 2 year break and i'm still having issues with running rich. I'm currently running e85 and 1000cc injectors on a stock fpr. For fuel management I am using the evo ecu and a maft. No matter how I scale the injectors I keep on running rich in the 9.8 ish area. What I have observed is that I get a compete fuel cut at 4500 rpm, and it sputters up to that. Though I also might add that under load (going up a hill) the car seems to do much better, still rich though. I remeber being told to install a knock sensor because my evo ecu needs one so I'm gonna do that tomorrow, and see if that helps. I also tried an experiment where I removed the wastgate spring completely and found out the car would only rev up to 2500 rpm which tells me that there is way too much fuel going into the engine. My theory is that when I increase the amount of boost it seems to make my car run a tad bit better. Where i'm confused is why dosen't anything happen when I change the settings on the ecu, at all. Is it really all because of the knock sensor, does everyone else running the evo ecu install a knock sensor on their car. Thank you for listening to all my rambling but I wanted to make it as detailed as possible. Oh and one more question, do you think if I installed and aeromotive fpr it would help at all, to my knowledge that would increase the fuel pressure which would not make my situation any better.

Another thing that I was reading is there certain stuff i should disable on the evo ecu such as fpr or egr solenoid that might make things a bit better?

i would get an upgraded FPR as you are probably over running the stock regulator on top of everything then revisit it. also, no knock sensor will cause the car to pull timing like crazy and it wont run right. if its still running rich you can start messing with the A/F table as it has what ratios the ecu shoots for under certain RPMs and load and you can change them in ECU Flash.

if you are using an evo ecu, then you shouldnt need a maft, unless your venting to atmosphere. You should zero out the maft (or remove it completely) and do all the tuning on the evo ecu.

What size fuel lines are your running and what pump are you running? Who tuned the car? you?

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Originally Posted by paparishi90

ok so I just started working on my galant yesterday after a 2 year break and i'm still having issues with running rich. I'm currently running e85 and 1000cc injectors on a stock fpr. For fuel management I am using the evo ecu and a maft. No matter how I scale the injectors I keep on running rich in the 9.8 ish area. What I have observed is that I get a compete fuel cut at 4500 rpm, and it sputters up to that. Though I also might add that under load (going up a hill) the car seems to do much better, still rich though. I remeber being told to install a knock sensor because my evo ecu needs one so I'm gonna do that tomorrow, and see if that helps. I also tried an experiment where I removed the wastgate spring completely and found out the car would only rev up to 2500 rpm which tells me that there is way too much fuel going into the engine. My theory is that when I increase the amount of boost it seems to make my car run a tad bit better. Where i'm confused is why dosen't anything happen when I change the settings on the ecu, at all. Is it really all because of the knock sensor, does everyone else running the evo ecu install a knock sensor on their car. Thank you for listening to all my rambling but I wanted to make it as detailed as possible. Oh and one more question, do you think if I installed and aeromotive fpr it would help at all, to my knowledge that would increase the fuel pressure which would not make my situation any better.

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A: your wide band needs to be calibrated. The car wont run if it is that rich
B: your timing is prbably a little off. I would re time the engine and see how it runs after that.

Also since you are running e85 i would probably switch to a aeromotive 1:1 FPR, this will help keep fuel pressure at the right level when in boost becuase it is 1:1 boost referenced

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Originally Posted by qnz

if you are using an evo ecu, then you shouldn't need a maft, unless your venting to atmosphere. You should zero out the maft (or remove it completely) and do all the tuning on the evo ecu.

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^^x2 I would use the stock evo Maf.

You need a aftermarket FPR. Also why are you using such a high injector cc? Unless you are making 450+ you don't need 1000cc injectors and the stock evo ecu fuel maps and timing are set for 560cc injectors. If you don't tune the maps on the stock ecu you going to run rich or lean. Knock sensor is a most for tuning. I would check the MAF. put the stock 399 evo maf.

Don't tune the ECU if you don't know how to. Just by down scaling the injectors wont help the issue. When you play with the injector scaling you need to re-tune the fuel maps then the timing maps. If you don't you will do harm to the engine by creating knock. Keep your knock at 0

I'm working with a tuner here in Kansas, and since it's e85 i'm at 106 octane so I'm pretty confident that i'm not getting any knock. The maft is zeroed out and is only there to vent to atmosphere. The reason for the 1000cc injectors is because of the e85, The 455cc injectors would be maxed out completely due to the approx 30% increase in fuel consumption. I do know that as I scale the injectors I have to play with the fuel and timing maps, the only thing is no matter what I do I have no response from the engine, ergo is why I'm gonna try wiring the knock sensor and see if that helps with the timing a bit. Thanks for the responses, this is leading me in the right direction.
I'm running a walbro 255 on stock fuel lines. Yea I'm sorry I made it pretty vague on my tuning experience but I've tuned a couple evo's non e85 for about 400 hp. Do you think the Aeromotive will really help, because I thought our stock fpr is a rising rate 1:1. Also I have calibrated my sensor free air a couple times. Thanks again.

knock sensor wont help with the timing. Its only for when it detects knock, it will pull timing (loads your low octane map). But if your low octane map is out of wack, then the knock sensor wont save your motor from blowing up

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Originally Posted by paparishi90

I'm working with a tuner here in Kansas, and since it's e85 i'm at 106 octane so I'm pretty confident that i'm not getting any knock. The maft is zeroed out and is only there to vent to atmosphere. The reason for the 1000cc injectors is because of the e85, The 455cc injectors would be maxed out completely due to the approx 30% increase in fuel consumption. I do know that as I scale the injectors I have to play with the fuel and timing maps, the only thing is no matter what I do I have no response from the engine, ergo is why I'm gonna try wiring the knock sensor and see if that helps with the timing a bit. Thanks for the responses, this is leading me in the right direction.
I'm running a walbro 255 on stock fuel lines. Yea I'm sorry I made it pretty vague on my tuning experience but I've tuned a couple evo's non e85 for about 400 hp. Do you think the Aeromotive will really help, because I thought our stock fpr is a rising rate 1:1. Also I have calibrated my sensor free air a couple times. Thanks again.

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Don't be too confident about getting any knock just because you are running E85. You can advance your timing so much that you still register no knock with E85 Fuel, however at the same time your can also damage your engine. Depending on how good your tuner is out there, and provided it is actually being tuned on a dyno, he should have some aggressive timing set in place where peak power is being made.

You can't simply just scale the injectors and call it a day. Keep in mind when you initially scale te injectors it should be about 15-20% less than the actual injector size. Along with this you MUST dial in your injector latency as well, without doing this your fuel trims will be way out of wack. If these are too far positive, your ECU begins to remove fuel to make the AFR lean, if these are too negative, your ECU is demanding more fuel and will richen the AFR.

Honestly to maintain optimal fuel pressure, you need to get rid of the stock one. Evo FPR works, however it is best to have an adjustable FPR installed with a gauge so you can see for sure where your fuel pressure is sitting.

well I even reverted back to stock evo map, and even then I should be able to drive decently, am I incorrect? Do you guys think that my maft might not be reading correctly? I'm going to go get the codes pulled from my computer here in a little bit. I'm not sure if it will help but maybe it might let me know if its getting an air reading. I'll try to log a session later tonight or tomorrow and post that up here. I know I'm not giving you guys much to work with right now but thanks again for the suggestions.

If you dont have a knock sensor. The ECU will only use the low fuel and timing maps. So your ecu "evo" is running at safe mode = it will run more rich so it wont harm the engine. Make sure you have stock MAF. Very important. The MAF works with the map sensor and the injectors. I did some testing on the evo MAF on the stock 2.4L PCM. It works for a few minutes great, "response is great" but since i'm not using the map sensor and other setting that is on the evo ecu. My afr was from 14.7-15 to 8.3, it was doing that every second. MAF was making my fuel richer but the o2 was making lean since it was to rich. This whole tuning needs to be a balance on every field.

I also do have a aeromotive fpr that I did not install yet but I can do asap. I did scale the injectors to about 850cc and change the latency to the specs sent to me by injector dynamics. He does have a dyno to tune on so we are using that but like I said I cannot even get the engine to rev consistently. I have to find the sweet spot on my throttle or I get no power at all which tells me there is no combustion. I checked my plugs to see if they were fouled out but those are in great condition.

Ok because right now i'm running the gm maf with a maf translator. Also I need to get an evo map sensor and that is probably where if screwed up. So run the stock galant maf with an evo map sensor and I might be in better shape?

Isaurio now that I read your post again what you are saying is to use the galant maf without the evo one and i'm ok. Also I need a recirc kit for my bov then... is there any way to make this work with the gm maf and the maft since I already have it?

Also can I treat the low fuel and timing maps just like I would the high fuel maps and just use that as a base tune?

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Originally Posted by paparishi90

Ok because right now i'm running the gm maf with a maf translator. Also I need to get an evo map sensor and that is probably where if screwed up. So run the stock galant maf with an evo map sensor and I might be in better shape?

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You are using the evo ECU. If you use the stock galant maf it will bug out on you since you have the evo maf scaling on the ecu. The stock MAF the max scaling you could use is the galant 3.0 scaling and smoothing with no problems. "no evo scaling on the 501 maf"

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Originally Posted by paparishi90

Isaurio now that I read your post again what you are saying is to use the galant maf without the evo one and i'm ok. Also I need a recirc kit for my bov then... is there any way to make this work with the gm maf and the maft since I already have it?

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No. you need the evo maf with the evo ecu. I had problems with my stock PCM and the evo MAF. i need to change a few sensor and tune the PCM to read the MAF right. It works on the stock PCM but for only a few minutes them the PCM will get a bad readings since you need a few evo sensors like the MAP and other settings.

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Originally Posted by paparishi90

Also can I treat the low fuel and timing maps just like I would the high fuel maps and just use that as a base tune?

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Yes you can but is not recommend. If you do there is more chance of damaging the engine do to knock since the ECU have no choice to use the maps like SPD_FRK said. Just leave the maps alone. Work first with the sensors and the FPR. Get a stock rom and flash it back to the evo ecu. Work small steps at a time. Lower the injectors and change the latency etc. "I will use a lower cc injectors"

I dont know your mod tell us what you running right now. What turbo, what head and block etc?

My current setup is a 5 speed manual
My car has a t3/t4 garrett turbo with a .63 a/r
3" intake hotside-2.5" intercooler piping
Ebay FMIC
tial wastegate
hks ssqv blow off valve,
t1 racing development 1000 cc injectors
walbro 255 fuel pump
gm maf and maf translaor
custom 3" mandrel bent exhaust no cat
2.5" downpipe
innovate lc-1 air to fuel
Evo Ecu with a boomslang harness.

Ok just to clarify if i change the scaling of the galant's mass airflow sensor, then it might work, or do I have it wrong. I'm currently on the blow through setup with the LS1 mass airflow but I obviously need to use the pull through setup with the stock galant maf. I really don't know if my gm maf is being registered by the evo ecu; I do have a cel so I'm going to try to pull the codes and see what information the computer is and is not receiving.

I'm also on the stock head and block, running a tubular manifold that I got from stewi a while back.

ok. Stock block with stock head:
Dont use e85
Get evo injectors 560cc on ECU 450cc(you need resistor pack) or WRX pink top 565cc on ecu 455cc (plug and play) dont use the 1000cc
delete the translator and the gm maf
get the 399 evo maf(plug and play)
put the FPR
You need to re-tune the ecu because the 4g63 is smaller than the 4g64 and the evo ecu is tune for the 4g63.
with the stock motor and SOHC is so much you can do. You can't go crazy and start getting big injectors and putting e85 because it wont work without a good ass tune and the right mods. Everything needs to work together.

If you want to make power, go with the evo head and get forge internals.

you will make more power on the stock 4g64 and have a stable motor with evo injectors, evo maf, a knock sensor "for tuning" so the evo ecu could work 100%

Really, well i'm not trying to push a terrible amount of boost, 8-9lbs, the only reason I did E85 was because Kansas will reimbursed me for the conversion. The 1000cc is in order to compensate for the 30% increase in fuel needed. So the reason my car is bogging down is because of too much fuel and the soch head doesn't flow enough air out of the engine. What I'm curious about is why the car does the same thing when there is no boost at all going to it. Really all that e85 is a 105 octane fuel that is much safer for the engine. I understand that means you can tune your car more aggressively but that doesn't mean you have to, am I wrong?

Because is not a boost problem is a maf, injector and ecu combo. Bro you need to start on the maf them tune them injector and fpr and tune some more. And get the knock sensor.

i think youre trying to do too many things at once. youre going from a stock galant to turbocharged with evo ecu and e85 and maft at the same time. when changing so many things at once, I find its hard to pinpoint what I added that made things go wrong.

If it were me, I would pull out all the extra stuff, run the evo ecu and evo maf and recirculate the bov and try to get the car running. If it runs OK, then add the maft. After that runs OK, then add the e85.

Before you do anything.....

Do a boost leak test.

I honestly can't believe no one has mentioned this. Nothing will throw off your a/f ratio on a metered car more than a boost leak. Even the tiniest ones can screw you.... l

I did a boost leak test making it out of pvc pipe and silicon hose, i'm not sure how well it worked though. I'm going to do it again... last time I did it was two years ago.

Is there any way I could rescale the galant maf to work with the evo ecu. I know that some non-evo lancer guys use the 501 maf on a turbo setup they just rescale it. I would switch to an evo maf, but I don't have one on hand and the earliest I can get it is over a week... as you guys mentioned i'm now removing all the superfluous mods and making it just a normal turbo.

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Originally Posted by paparishi90

Is there any way I could rescale the galant maf to work with the evo ecu. I know that some non-evo lancer guys use the 501 maf on a turbo setup they just rescale it. I would switch to an evo maf, but I don't have one on hand and the earliest I can get it is over a week... as you guys mentioned i'm now removing all the superfluous mods and making it just a normal turbo.

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It could be done with ECUFlash but like i said i dont think the evo ECU will like the resistor of the 501 MAF to be scale down to the Galant or eclipse. I test it on the Stock PCM and it did not like the settings "I try putting the evo settings to the stock PCM". You could try it. Get a stock galant or eclipse 2.4L rom with a working xml with maf smoothing, filter and scaling. and you could try copy and paste the numbers to the evo maf settings. Like i said the maf dont work alone you need to change the biometric settings and other settings on the rom to get it working. Just try it and let us know. Is a trial and error on this type of programing mods.