im sure this has been thought of but...

ok so we have essentially 3 forms of forced induction, supercharger, turbo and nitrous. my question is has anyone tried to or thought of combing two of these premises into one easy to use and install application? my idea is simply a bottle of comrpessed air. instead of nitrous, the bottle will inject natural air into the motor. and instead of "spraying" it would have a jet where the air would enter the intake similar to that of a turbo. i know that pressurized bottles of air can produce over 10 psi of airflow which would be some pretty strong boost if it could be channeled in the correct way. these setups would seeminlgy be easy to install, cheap to refill, and seeminlgy pose less of a risk to motor damage then nitrous. not to mention that pressurized air always comes out of pressure at a fairly cool temperature, which would create a cool intake charge to make what would seem like healthy boost. any thoughts?

and i want world peace.....

naw man but seriously that sounds right, atleast to me it does. i know all the experts will have something to say about it

well for the most part the reason that nitrous works is b/c it contains almost 50% more oxygen than regular air (don't quote me on this https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...ault/smile.gif ) oh yeah and nitrous isn't FI. As for the idea, I'm still trying to picture it in my head... You may need to patent this page though, lol

yeah watch out for GALANT03, that mofo copys members ideas........i would delete your post if i were you lol

nitrous IS a form of forced induction. it forces oxygen/fuel into the engine that's in excess to what's there stock. problem with injecting just plain old air, is the HP gain would be bullshit. nitrous isn't unsafe at all, and is way more practical than just normal air that we breathe. Nitrous works in 3 ways: it's colder than regular oxygen, so it's denser and colder oxygen makes more hp; it's a compressed form of oxygen, so there's why it's called forced induction; the nitrogen molecules create an endothermic reaction, thus, more power.

A lot of guys on the DSM boards are running nitrous and turbo, only problem is your boost will spike since the nitrous will be creating a more powerfull exhaust stream, spooling the turbo more aggressively. You need a big turbo to handle it, or turn down the boost a lot. There's also a select few who are running supercharger and nitrous.

Now supercharger and turbocharger....well....yeah

to quote an article about nitrous oxide:

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How does nitrous oxide work? There are three points. First, nitrous oxide is comprised of 2 parts nitrogen and one part oxygen (36% oxygen by weight). When the nitrous oxide is heated to approximately 572 degrees F (on compression stroke), it breaks down and release extra oxygen, However, it is not this oxygen alone which creates additional power, but the ability of this oxygen to burn more fuel. By burning more fuel, higher cylinder pressures are created and this is where most of the additional power is realized. Secondly, as pressurized nitrous oxide is injected into the intake manifold, it changes from a liquid to a gas (boils). This boiling affect reduces the temperature of the nitrous to a minus .127 Degrees F. This "cooling affect" in turn significantly reduces intake charge temperatures by approximately 60-75 Degrees F. This also helps create additional power. A general rule of thumb: For every 10 Degrees F. reduction in intake charge temperature, a 1% increase in power will be realized. Example: A 350 HP engine with an intake temperature drop of 70 Degrees F, would gain approximately 25 HP on the cooling affect alone. The third point, the nitrogen that was also released during the compression stroke performs an important role. Nitrogen acts to "buffer or dampener" the increased cylinder pressures leading to a controlled combustion process.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by peanotation

nitrous IS a form of forced induction. it forces oxygen/fuel into the engine that's in excess to what's there stock. problem with injecting just plain old air, is the HP gain would be bullshit. nitrous isn't unsafe at all, and is way more practical than just normal air that we breathe. Nitrous works in 3 days: it's colder than regular oxygen, so it's denser and colder oxygen makes more hp; it's a compressed oxygen, so there's why it's called forced induction; the nitrogen molecules create an endothermic reaction, thus, more power.

A lot of guys on the DSM boards are running nitrous and turbo, only problem is your boost will spike since the nitrous will be creating a more powerfull exhaust stream, spooling the turbo more aggressively. You need a big turbo to handle it, or turn down the boost a lot. There's also a select few who are running supercharger and nitrous.

Now supercharger and turbocharger....well....yeah

to quote an article about nitrous oxide:

Quote:

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How does nitrous oxide work? There are three points. First, nitrous oxide is comprised of 2 parts nitrogen and one part oxygen (36% oxygen by weight). When the nitrous oxide is heated to approximately 572 degrees F (on compression stroke), it breaks down and release extra oxygen, However, it is not this oxygen alone which creates additional power, but the ability of this oxygen to burn more fuel. By burning more fuel, higher cylinder pressures are created and this is where most of the additional power is realized. Secondly, as pressurized nitrous oxide is injected into the intake manifold, it changes from a liquid to a gas (boils). This boiling affect reduces the temperature of the nitrous to a minus .127 Degrees F. This "cooling affect" in turn significantly reduces intake charge temperatures by approximately 60-75 Degrees F. This also helps create additional power. A general rule of thumb: For every 10 Degrees F. reduction in intake charge temperature, a 1% increase in power will be realized. Example: A 350 HP engine with an intake temperature drop of 70 Degrees F, would gain approximately 25 HP on the cooling affect alone. The third point, the nitrogen that was also released during the compression stroke performs an important role. Nitrogen acts to "buffer or dampener" the increased cylinder pressures leading to a controlled combustion process.

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I was thinking about this the other day and I came to the conclusion that forced induction would have to mean positive pressure inside the intake manifold (as opposed to the normal negative pressure). So N02 isn't quite FI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jet Black

Quote:

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Originally Posted by peanotation

nitrous IS a form of forced induction. it forces oxygen/fuel into the engine that's in excess to what's there stock. problem with injecting just plain old air, is the HP gain would be bullshit. nitrous isn't unsafe at all, and is way more practical than just normal air that we breathe. Nitrous works in 3 days: it's colder than regular oxygen, so it's denser and colder oxygen makes more hp; it's a compressed oxygen, so there's why it's called forced induction; the nitrogen molecules create an endothermic reaction, thus, more power.

A lot of guys on the DSM boards are running nitrous and turbo, only problem is your boost will spike since the nitrous will be creating a more powerfull exhaust stream, spooling the turbo more aggressively. You need a big turbo to handle it, or turn down the boost a lot. There's also a select few who are running supercharger and nitrous.

Now supercharger and turbocharger....well....yeah

to quote an article about nitrous oxide:

Quote:

---

How does nitrous oxide work? There are three points. First, nitrous oxide is comprised of 2 parts nitrogen and one part oxygen (36% oxygen by weight). When the nitrous oxide is heated to approximately 572 degrees F (on compression stroke), it breaks down and release extra oxygen, However, it is not this oxygen alone which creates additional power, but the ability of this oxygen to burn more fuel. By burning more fuel, higher cylinder pressures are created and this is where most of the additional power is realized. Secondly, as pressurized nitrous oxide is injected into the intake manifold, it changes from a liquid to a gas (boils). This boiling affect reduces the temperature of the nitrous to a minus .127 Degrees F. This "cooling affect" in turn significantly reduces intake charge temperatures by approximately 60-75 Degrees F. This also helps create additional power. A general rule of thumb: For every 10 Degrees F. reduction in intake charge temperature, a 1% increase in power will be realized. Example: A 350 HP engine with an intake temperature drop of 70 Degrees F, would gain approximately 25 HP on the cooling affect alone. The third point, the nitrogen that was also released during the compression stroke performs an important role. Nitrogen acts to "buffer or dampener" the increased cylinder pressures leading to a controlled combustion process.

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I was thinking about this the other day and I came to the conclusion that forced induction would have to mean positive pressure inside the intake manifold (as opposed to the normal negative pressure). So N02 isn't quite FI.

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yeah, unfortunately for me, you're right. Nitrous DOESN'T create positive pressure in the intake manifold, it uses the negative pressure that's there to add more fuel/air into the cylinders for an explosion. it does add power by means of a compressed air/fuel method though.

Quote:

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"Forced Induction" is the process of using a mechanical system to "force" more air into an engine. This includes Superchargers, Turbochargers, Nitrious systems, and other mechanical systems, but not hood scoops which just direct outside air into the engine. Both Superchargers and Turbos use a compressor to "force" air into the engine, making it more dense (i.e. more oxygen). When a proportionately larger amount of fuel is added to the denser air charge, the mixture creates a much larger explosion and thus more power from the engine. Nitrous Oxide Systems ("NOS") works by directly injecting Nitrous Oxide (NO2) into the engine. The higher concentration of oxygen found in NO2 (compared to air) and more fuel leads to the same effect as Superchargers and Turbos. Although the basic concepts are similar, each differs in their design and execution.

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i understand what your saying, but i think you may be missing the general idea peano. i would have the air enter the engine in the same way a turbo forces air into the motor. i understand the chemical properties of nitrous and how they make more power, but this has nothing to do with chemical properties but rather the very property of forcing air into the motor at a high rate of pressure. i also now declare my idea patented using the honor system, dont be dicks now https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...lt/biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by 01GalantLSV6

i understand what your saying, but i think you may be missing the general idea peano. i would have the air enter the engine in the same way a turbo forces air into the motor. i understand the chemical properties of nitrous and how they make more power, but this has nothing to do with chemical properties but rather the very property of forcing air into the motor at a high rate of pressure. i also now declare my idea patented using the honor system, dont be dicks now https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...lt/biggrin.gif

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well, the only way you could do that is with turbo/supercharger, but forcing air into an engine requires one of those two. like, what your asking for is already in existence. only other way to force air into an engine is with nitrous via direct port injection. other than that, your just talking about turbo/supercharger. there's no other way to "inject" air into the combustion chamber. unless you invented an entire new form of FI https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...ault/smile.gif

maybe thats what im going for... 8)

if some engineer could develop a jet, that could force air into the motor utilizing the pressure of the air within the bottle, i see possibilities. pretty much take the exact idea of a turbo...but remove the turbo and the oil lines and any need for exhaust to be a factor...and use the pressurized air to force air into the intake at a high pressure. the system could be activated via button or arming switch, boost could be easily adjusted by opening or closing the valve on the bottle more or less. and there would be no need for an intercooler, because the pressurized air will already be sufficiently cool.

everyone has been so friendly so far...i fear the presence of scootin...im sure he will make himself felt as soon as he sees this...

lol, again, thats nitrous. a 10lb nitrous bottle, which is what 80% of nitrous users have, is at 1100psi full. nitrous is ran via the negative pressure draw in the intake manifold and the bottle's pressure "forcing" nitrous into the intake manifold. when you reach about 4 pounds left, your bottles pressure is about 400-500psi, and when you spray it's pretty limp compared to a full bottle.

Why would you use normal air when N02 is so much better? Are you talking about a jet of air that can actually create a positive pressure within the manifold? That would require a massive amount of bottle pressure, and overall is very impractical.
Either way if it works it would have been thought of by now.

jet...well, yes that is what im saying lol. i was talking positive pressure similar to a turbo, and yea i assume it wudve been thought of already, but hey weirder things have happened

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 01GalantLSV6

jet...well, yes that is what im saying lol. i was talking positive pressure similar to a turbo, and yea i assume it wudve been thought of already, but hey weirder things have happened

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shit, it would need A LOT of pressure. if nitrous doesn't do it at 1100psi, and some guys are heating to 1300psi (not safe at all) then you're gonna need something so impractical it wouldn't matter. besides, whats the point of creating positive pressure? if that's ALL it is, no point in it unless there's compressed air and/or fuel following.

This has been done before and its pretty much pointless. You have to have so much more pressure in the bottle to maintain the 10psi for one thing.. secondly the burst doesnt last very long. Was a bottle hooked up to a remote bottle opener to a regulator set to somethin real low like 5psi

IIRC it didnt actualy boost much if at all, its not a closed system forcing air. There was an increase in air flow however that was un metered air because it was injected directly into the intake after the mas and since there was no easy way to tune it since the burst would come out of no where, they tried a second fuel injector that sprayed with when the bottle opener kicked on and it all just ran like crap. Im almost positive this was on DSMTalk.

Think about how a turbo or sc works and then think about blowing in air from a bottle, it wont be creating the suction needed to bring up the mas readings to compensate for the air, and it will not really boost half your air is gona blow back out the throttle plate, and since nothings forcing back on it...it just pooof flies away... Youd have a better shot injecting at the other end of the intake like where the FPR hose is. But since your not gona pull the numbers you need through the mas because its not a true forced induction which will suck air through the mas like crazy...its gona run like sh*t or stall out on you from the unmetered airflow.

did that make any sense? almost 5am..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 01GalantLSV6

i understand what your saying, but i think you may be missing the general idea peano. i would have the air enter the engine in the same way a turbo forces air into the motor. i understand the chemical properties of nitrous and how they make more power, but this has nothing to do with chemical properties but rather the very property of forcing air into the motor at a high rate of pressure. i also now declare my idea patented using the honor system, dont be dicks now https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...lt/biggrin.gif

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Technically, yea, you have the whole idea verbally patented (does that even exist) but even when you pay $1,000 - $2,000 for a patent, they will be torn to pieces by a good lawyer in court. From what i understand a good patent will cost at least $7,000.

The person who told me this was a neighbor who invented a new type of electrical socket thingy, so i know he has at least gone through the process.

Chance are this has been thought of already...in addition to that filing a patent is a long and drawn out process--while $2000 may be enough to just file, you're looking at prolly $10,000 or more to maintain the patent over the life (17-20 yrs) of it.

Just for your viewing pleasure...if you want to see if your ideas have been thought of (ie patented already) goto www.uspto.gov and do a search.

Like I already posted IT HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE atleast a good year or two before this post. And pretty much already been proven NOT TO WORK!

:orangeno:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(peanotation)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Now supercharger and turbocharger....well....yeah
</div>

They exist. Its called a twin charger. Mate a turbo charger with a roots type sc on the intake manifold... you have a belt system that gears the sc for times of lag on the turbo.
its a good way to melt an engine if ask me.. but I know of people who do it, safely.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_kage)</div><div class='quotemain'>They exist. Â*Its called a twin charger. Â*Mate a turbo charger with a roots type sc on the intake manifold... you have a belt system that gears the sc for times of lag on the turbo. Â*
its a good way to melt an engine if ask me.. but I know of people who do it, safely.</div>
It's only run on some of the most ridiculous drag vehicles. It's a good way to get to ridiculously high boost pressures; If you feed 9lbs of pressure into a compressor that compresses at a 4:1 ratio, you'll get 36lbs out (of a 100% efficient compressor, which doesn't exist...but that's a different story entirely https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...ault/smile.gif )

just run a leaf blower to your intake manifold. that way you save money on refilling bottles of....air....

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Originally Posted by TWISTED II

just run a leaf blower to your intake manifold. that way you save money on refilling bottles of....air....

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https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...ault/laugh.gif https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...ault/laugh.gif https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...ault/laugh.gif
Yeah, it won't work. Trust me.