Two strange questions...

<span style='font-size:30pt;line-height:100%'>1)</span>Considering how much of a pain in the ass changing out the spark plugs on the V6 is, as well as the cost of the plugs (between $500-1600 ~ it seems the dealership charges 280 PER VR4 360cc, and aftermarket only sells them in sets of 4), I was wondering if I can get away with placing a single/double injector(s) at the throttle body in order to supplement the AFR. I could control the pulse width via the emanage (which incidently comes equipped to do exactly this).

I got this idea from RIPPs SDS. It seems that a while back this is how they did it. Though they dropped the idea due to problems with running TOO rich up top. Now their coming back with the same idea (so now you have a meth injection alongside gasoline). I was wondering what are your views on this setup? Is it even possible to achieve equal fuel flow through all cylinders?

<span style='font-size:30pt;line-height:100%'>2)</span>Next question has to do with water injection at the throttle body. I've heard of a few people using water injection in place of intercoolers (at low boost atleast), to control charge temp. Is this a viable short-term solution?

The idea of the Carb/EFI setup came from these threads (the first thread goes into some detail):
New and Improved SDS

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What we’ve done….

The stock injectors remain installed and the car is seemingly stock when started. The car idles completely normal and runs “factory� under non boosted situations. When the car sees boost (thanks to new technology in the Black Box) the Black Box does two things. First it activates 1 or 2 supplemental injectors (depending on the application) installed in the 90Degree boost pipe. Almost simultaneously the Black Box pulls back timing according to boost. This allows the vehicle to operate completely stock under normal conditions and run strong under boosted situations. This allows for customers with different Mods to run perfectly because the car will be getting fuel in the exact amount that specific car needs instead of when the “average� car needs it.

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Twin Turbo Install

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I have already purchased a Greddy eManage, along with the ignition harness, injector harness, support tool, etc.. One thing I could do is devise a way to mount 2 of the 360cc injectors from the Stealth in the manifold and control them via the additional injector control on the eManage. This would greatly increase the non-boost driveability, as the stock ECU would not be tricked by a modified MAS signal.

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In theory, the water injection thing seems like it would work as water has a high heat capacity, so it would work similar to an air to water intercooler (using the heat capacity of water to draw heat out of the compressed air from the turbo). The only thing is you would have to manage how much...addition of too much water would cause misfires in the engine and possible corrosion of engine parts (considering in the combustion cycle, the water would get vaporized to steam which would help rust parts of the cylinder out). In addition to that, water is a byproduct of all hydrocarbon reactions. I would think if that is the case, then you'd have to make sure that the engine is strong enough to withstand the extra vapor pressure of the steam created in combustion if your add water injection + the added pressure of compressed air fuel mixture exploding in combustion cycle.

Considering everything, I think it would just be easier to get an intercooler

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jusmills

In theory, the water injection thing seems like it would work as water has a high heat capacity, so it would work similar to an air to water intercooler (using the heat capacity of water to draw heat out of the compressed air from the turbo). The only thing is you would have to manage how much...addition of too much water would cause misfires in the engine and possible corrosion of engine parts (considering in the combustion cycle, the water would get vaporized to steam which would help rust parts of the cylinder out). In addition to that, water is a byproduct of all hydrocarbon reactions. I would think if that is the case, then you'd have to make sure that the engine is strong enough to withstand the extra vapor pressure of the steam created in combustion if your add water injection + the added pressure of compressed air fuel mixture exploding in combustion cycle.

Considering everything, I think it would just be easier to get an intercooler

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Ya I think your right. I would hate to be one of the first people in automotive history to rust his car from the inside out. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...ault/laugh.gif Now another question I have in regards to cooling is with the IC. In the 2nd link posted above, the TT guy (jbasol) talks about possibly not needing an IC if he kept the boost low enough. Is this possible in my case? I would think the major differnaces between him and I are the fact that his TT setup probably allows for higher effeciency and lower overall EGT. Though with a properly sized turbo, and my realistic goal of 250whp, my charge temps shouldn't be getting that hot anyways.

Though Im still intrested in the fuel injection. Despite the inherient danger (remeber that thread in OT with the video of the VW on fire...yep thats all i see in the future), I'm really intrested in this. Basicly install an oversized injector in the intake, and set it to release only during WOT (this was I can avoid puddling as in the case with NO2, and clear up any idle issues).

edit: Just to clear up, this is all theory. My plans are still the same (basicly do it the 'normal' way). Unless one of these solutions looks like its truly viable, I will not attempt it.

Whether or not you 'need' the IC, you will want to have one regardless, so yes you need one. :wink:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon)</div><div class='quotemain'>Whether or not you 'need' the IC, you will want to have one regardless, so yes you need one. Â*:wink:</div>

Can't argue against that. Even if I dont hook it up, I'll still want it. https://www.thegalantcenter.org/styl...ault/laugh.gif

Well just realize that without an intercooler you'll be running hot intake temps, so even if it's still at a safe temp, you'll still be losing potential hp.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon)</div><div class='quotemain'>Well just realize that without an intercooler you'll be running hot intake temps, so even if it's still at a safe temp, you'll still be losing potential hp.</div>

Thats a good point. Though for the time being, I'm not totally concerned with HP.

the intercooler and piping was the bitchiest part of the install for me, and i recomend you do it. even if you can run it fine without an IC, on a hot hot summer day i don't know how safe it could be. just think, if you're going 65mph on the highway, there's all this nice air flowing through your IC. besides, how annoying would that be if you just finished the install and everything's running, and you go to drive it and your EGTs start getting way too high on the highway or something. now you gotta redo the charge pipes.

I have a water-meth injection kit on my G. Part of my SDS stage 2.5. Two things to think about if going that way: (1) It's a water-METH injection - not just water. The methanol is really what serves to lower the temps and provide a cleaner/fuller burn. (2) You're not going to see gains over NOT using a water-meth kit unless you advance/retard timing. Straight timing with an injection kit does nothing more than lower combustion temps, which give only minimal gains. But using in conjunction with modified timing - where it serves to quench pre-detonation - does provided double-digit percentage gains (i.e.; 10%, 15%, etc). The gains are entirely dependant on what your FI setup is made of, how efficient it is, etc.

I have some thoughts on adding the injectors in the intake track, too. I initially ran stock 240 injectors with a 550 just before the TB. I've since replaced the 240's with 340's (? I think - I have to look) and removed the extra injector. I'm at work now and strapped for time, but will try to write up more on this later, if you're interested.

J

this maybe a stupid question but does ambient temperature have that much effect on EGT...

the reason I ask is the ambient air on a cool day has a certain density, then when its compressed by the turbo its going to heat up to a certain temp. On a hot day, the turbo will compress the air the same amount, but will have to move more air in order to get the same charge (cause the hotter ambient air is less dense)

If you assume the same compression, there should be less air (oxygen) in the charge to combust in hot conditions, which would equal lower EGTs. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jusmills)</div><div class='quotemain'>this maybe a stupid question but does ambient temperature have that much effect on EGT...

the reason I ask is the ambient air on a cool day has a certain density, then when its compressed by the turbo its going to heat up to a certain temp. Â*On a hot day, the turbo will compress the air the same amount, but will have to move more air in order to get the same charge (cause the hotter ambient air is less dense) Â*

If you assume the same compression, there should be less air (oxygen) in the charge to combust in hot conditions, which would equal lower EGTs. Â*Someone correct me if I'm wrong</div>

i think that's a valid point, but i dont think it will make that much of a difference in the long run. the only way i've seen my EGTs drop is if its freezing cold outside or i've been cruising slow enough to stay under boost.

speaking of EGTs, does anyone know a safe temp. for the I4, or even the V6?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jet Black)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon)</div><div class='quotemain'>Well just realize that without an intercooler you'll be running hot intake temps, so even if it's still at a safe temp, you'll still be losing potential hp.</div>

Thats a good point. Though for the time being, I'm not totally concerned with HP.</div>

an intercooler only allows more power by giving you colder intake temps, there for allowing more aggressive timing, and the denser charge air will allow more fuel to be added to the mix giving more power of course.
but the real key here is knock and more important in your case- Predetonation. which will easily destroy a motor or in mild cases, shorten its lifespan considerably.
Unless your ecu has the ability to retard timing with accordance to knock, you will be f*cked without an intercooler. water injection is great, and works quite well to raise the effective octane level of your fuel, but it is no substitute for an intercooler of any type. even if your ecu utilizes a knock sensor, the ecu can only retard timing so far. and as a result of you having no intercooler to cool the charge, you will exceed the ecu's buffer zone and reach knock much faster.
not to mention that the stock mas takes intake temp readings before the turbo(i.e. before the air gets compressed and super heated) meaning the ecu will make a timing and fuel map for 90 ambient intake temp, and after its compressed, the combustion chamber will see 150+ degrees intake temp. you are going to hit detonation real quick bud.
just get an intercooler. water injection later.
If you are going to do this, do it right. I'm all for it. seriously you can get a eclipse side mount for 30 bucks on ebay or a starion front mount for a little more.

a properly set up water injection system will be better than a smic. but, you have to know what you're doing, and it will take you some research time. in addition, an i/c is more reliable. not to mention, you will have to monitor water levels closely to make sure you never run too low. an i/c will generally be cheaper than a properly set up water injection system as well, unless you get into big fmics and air/water i/c's.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sabzi5858)</div><div class='quotemain'>a properly set up water injection system will be better than a smic. Â*but, you have to know what you're doing, and it will take you some research time. Â*in addition, an i/c is more reliable. Â*not to mention, you will have to monitor water levels closely to make sure you never run too low. Â*an i/c will generally be cheaper than a properly set up water injection system as well, unless you get into big fmics and air/water i/c's.</div>

well put

The biggest problem is the lack of space in the engine bay on the V6. You can pick up a good PWR liquid to air intercooler kit for about $800 and you only need one piece of straight pipe and one 90 degree bend. The liquid to air does a great job of cooling. Rather then running it just with water you do a 50/50 mix, water and alcohol. The kit comes with everything you need, Im getting rid of my front mount and going with the liquid to air next month. Need to relocate your battery to the trunk to make it fit. Battery relocation kit is like $45 and it take about 2 hours to do the battery kit.

This also prevents you from having to hack up your front bumper/crash bar for the FMIC and spending alot of money to have intercooler pipes fabbed.

speaking of batteries, i would relocate yours as well. it's not really in the way, but it'll make things easier when you're running your piping.

lot's of misinformation here. first off, water injection will NOT "rust" the inside of the engine. that's just plain ludacrous. the effect of steam on the inside of the combustion chamber is VERY beneficial. first off, it will blast off all deposits, all the valves, pistons, complete combustion chamber will be spotless. the spark plugs will be so clean you will not be able to "read" them anymore. just a very light tan color. i can shine my bendalite into the spark plug holes, and the tops of the pistons look near new. all the casting numbers are clear, there is NO carbon on them.
because of the cooling effect of water injection, it has the same effect as much higher octane fuel. at least 4 points higher. on a turbo, or any fi motor, a lot of the extra fuel used under boost is for cooling. so, not only does wi reduce/eliminate knock, it also adds octane. and you DONT have to run a water/methanol mix, i do in the winter, but only to keep the lines from freezing. also, some pumps are not compatible with methanol.
a while ago, a guy with a merkur xr4ti did experiments with air to air, air/liquid, and water injection. he had thermocouples monitoring intake air temps at the t/bdy. iirc, the best was water injection, temp reductions of 155 deg, then air/liquid, about 150. however, combining them did not improve over the 155 deg drop.
several fuel systems ago, i did some back to back runs with and without water injection. big 16g/18 lbs boost, 560cc injectors, 93 pump, fp was 37 static, afc and pocketlogger. no wi, afc hi throttle settings from +4 to +7, knock 6, timing 23, injector duty cycle 86%. with wi, and final afc tuning hi throttle settings zeroed out, 7100 rpm, knock 0, timing 28, idc 77%.

here's a good place to start: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DSM_wa...ater_injection/

i use a shur flo pump(on sale, 38 bucks) at 100 psi, aquamist nozzles, hobbs pressure switch. i get most of my stuff from brad schaffner, georges imports, kcmo, biggest aquamist dealer in the us. i tap into the windshield washer resevoir, and i use distilled water. i have one nozzle plumbed right in the intake plenum, coming on at 6 lbs boost. in the summer, i add another nozzle right after the turbo, way before the intercooler. i have a switch to manually activate the system inside the car. i demo the system to the non believers, with the engine hot, touch the turbo outlet pipe right after the nozzle. it will be very hot to the touch. i rev the motor to about 3k, engage the water injection, and within seconds, they can feel the pipe get cold. not cool, COLD. the entire inlet tract cools down, it will eliminate heat soak. the ONLY problem i have is that i need a much larger resevoir for the water. i have a nice alloy 1.5 gallon tank that i will be remoting to the trunk, and put the pump back there, too.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(peanotation)</div><div class='quotemain'>speaking of batteries, i would relocate yours as well. it's not really in the way, but it'll make things easier when you're running your piping.</div>

Who me??? Im already relocating mine. I got the nice Taylor stainless sealed box and the whole kit. I need to move it, next month im going liquid to air and im getting the biggest one they sell so its gonna take up the whole area where the battery sits. Im also gonna go with a magnus intake manifold and 75mm TB, $$$ permitting.

Ok looks like I will forego the intercooler setup, and instead use a water injection system. Besides the fact that water seems to be much easier and much cheaper to setup (costs around 300-500), I like the fact that it can effectivly increase the octane rating (considering I only get 91 in Socal, I would be dumping fuel to stay knock-free).

I think I will be going with this kit (unless Ic an piece it together for cheaper)
http://coolingmist.com/detailpage.aspx?pid=02

some past prices of stuff i got for my unit:
shur flo pump 38.00
aquamist nozzle 19.00
hobbs pressure switch 27.00
4mm nylon line 3.50/meter
solenoid valve 50.00

unless you run your nozzles after the t/bdy, you dont need a solenoid. the shurflo pump has a microswitch and a pressure valve on it. if you tap into the intake plenum, you need the solenoid valve, otherwise, it will suck up water when under vacuum. depending on how clean an install you want, there are various other snap fittings, relays, wires, etc. that add to the cost. some of this extra stuff is not included in that kit, and i prefer the aquamist nozzles, which are very tiny, but cost a lot more. the aquamist uses one of those crazy british standard/pipe/metric/whatthef--- thread pitch, so you have to get a special tap, too. check on the dsm water injection group, there is a site there that sells the tap.

Ken...i'd say you are probably correct on most of the stuff in practice. I was assuming that if your setup was not properly installed and if too much water was drawn into the combustion chamber...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>addition of too much water would cause misfires in the engine and possible corrosion of engine parts </div>

I should have wrote that if you let that water sit it would rust those parts. At any rate no harm no foul.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jusmills)</div><div class='quotemain'>Ken...i'd say you are probably correct on most of the stuff in practice. Â*I was assuming that if your setup was not properly installed and if too much water was drawn into the combustion chamber...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>addition of too much water would cause misfires in the engine and possible corrosion of engine parts </div>

I should have wrote that if you let that water sit it would rust those parts. At any rate no harm no foul.</div>

if your setup was incorect and too much water was drawn into the combustion chamber, hydrolock is the result. and there isn't anything in the cumbustion chamber that can rust anyways. except perhaps the cylinder walls. which are lubricated with oil.