Engine Build 101...

Well this winter I want to build my current motor or another used motor which ill get from a yard. I want to run 10-15lbs MAX on this car. So would i have to build the lower block or just the top? I figure with the top i can just use the top of the Evo head correct? Just like when i started my turbo experience I had no clue till you guys help me understand, this is going to be another new project for me. so I liked to learn about what i need to do now so I can be prepared finically and maybe look out for deals. I will contuine to read stuff about building motors on club3g since it seems thier more post thier then here. so ill be doing my HW as well. as always thanks in advance.

I think that you prolly can safely boost 10psi on the stock bottom end. But jst for peace of mind & that urge to up the ante, building up the bottom end would be a good idea. And just for that utmost performance the evo head is good but if you stick with the SOHC just beef things up with better springs, valves, retainers, etc.

which top do you mean?? you mean the whole head or just what's inside the head??

You would need to build the block, could use a stock SOHC or DOHC head. and why "only" 10-15psi? Build the motor, forged pistons/rods, ARP fasteners, new bearings, the works, and just run an aftermarket headgasket and stock SOHC or DOHC head and enjoy 20+ psi pulls :)

but would it work fine with a high comp evo head??

The Evo head isnt a "high comp" head. Compression mainly depends on the pistons. You can raise/lower compression slightly by using different headgaskets and milling the head and what not. But if he runs some aftermarket forged lower compression pistons, standard headgasket, and a stock SOHC or DOHC head, he will have no problems whatsoever.

k seth.. cause i read at club 3g.. if you would compare the 2 heads.. evo and the optima, optima has a bigger combustion chamber making it ideal for high boost but low comp at N/A and evo's got a smaller combustion chamber bringing out the high comp of 11. something making good for N/A but not sure is capable of boosting... so just replace the pistons to low comp pistons and he should be great??

you can still run high(er) compression on turbo cars last i checked. just use a thicker hG and it will lower compression. the 4g64 rods are the same as the evo rods. the only thing you might want to change is the pistons. but even so, 10-15 psi is low-mid boost. and once you start ripping apart the engine, you will be tempted to redo everything. balanced crank, rods, pistons, bearings, overbore, etc.

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Originally Posted by milo111000

k seth.. cause i read at club 3g.. if you would compare the 2 heads.. evo and the optima, optima has a bigger combustion chamber making it ideal for high boost but low comp at N/A and evo's got a smaller combustion chamber bringing out the high comp of 11. something making good for N/A but not sure is capable of boosting... so just replace the pistons to low comp pistons and he should be great??

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Yep Yep, I seen first hand what the chamber looks like and its bigger. :)

If your goal is to only run 15psi. Leave your block in the car, take the head off and have the head decked and surfaced. By surfaced I mean that metal headgaskets require a certain "polish" of the head surface to properly seal. Get a custom thickness cometic headgasket, it runs about $100 and take 10 business days to get. Once you get the head milled, you sit down with your machinist with all your #'s, comp ratio, bore, stroke, cylinder head volume and with that info, the machinist can tell you how thick of a headgasket you need to achieve your target final compression ratio. I would say, your target should be 9:1 with either the SOHC or DOHC head. Now, here is my opinion. You can make this happen as long as you let someone set it up that knows what their doing. Get a Meth/Alky injection kit. Snow performance sells one, its cheap, it works extremely well. Get your motor tuned without the alky for 12-15psi and with the alky for 15-20psi. You should be able to make a solid 300whp safely. The heat and detonation is what kills the stock pistons. Alky helps fight against both, so does lower compression.

Ohh yeah and this is what it would cost if you keep the SOHC head.

ARP suts $95
Cometic Headgasket: $100
Alky Injection:$350
Machine Work:$150

So for just under $700 you got what you need, you can put it back together yourself. As far as engine management, your best bet is to run a 3g ECU and flash it, or Emanage. The Alky injection kit has its own independant controller.

now this would be the point were you gotta thinks which way you wanna go.. head swap is promising but so far, very few people came out very happy with it.. think if you woulda just bought that evo engine, would it have been cheaper.. so many decisions..

okay great. the prices you listed are perfect i was expecting 1K-1,300 tops for everything to be done. I will still read about all the terms you used because i have no clue have the stuff you said haha..but thats the great thing about learning right? I 90% will keep it Sohc. instead the 3g ecu wouldnt the evo ecu be better? I have an emange now but i hate this cold start issue so the flash was my next project along with the build up.

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Originally Posted by IceDouTGaLanT

instead the 3g ecu wouldnt the evo ecu be better? I have an emange now but i hate this cold start issue so the flash was my next project along with the build up.

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The 3g ECU or any 2001+ ECU can be reflashed to the EVO8 ROM, basically transforming you stock ECU to the EVO8 ECU. This is discussed in much more detail on Club3g. There was a post telling how to do this along with deleting the immobilizer function but I can't seem to find it anymore. Luckily I saved this page this page to my computer. FlashBlue is currently the king of this and is the one leading this revolution, as I am sure you are already aware of.

http://www.club3g.com/forum/showthre...light=ecuflash

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Originally Posted by milo111000

now this would be the point were you gotta thinks which way you wanna go.. head swap is promising but so far, very few people came out very happy with it.. think if you woulda just bought that evo engine, would it have been cheaper.. so many decisions..

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Evo engine cheaper... I am not so sure of that most Evo engine prices I have seen hover right around $3000 at least for the VIII, and then you never know what you're getting. Someone may have dogged it before you got it, which is probably the case. For $3000 I am sure you could build a bad ass 63/64 with almost all new parts especially of you get everything done right. Personally I grab a KIA head and and build it up with Evo parts, I've seen those go as cheap as $200. As far very few people being happy with it go to Evolutionm and read up, they've been doing it for a while and the DSM'ers have been it for even longer....

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Originally Posted by neepar

For $3000 I am sure you could build a bad ass 63/64 with almost all new parts especially of you get everything done right

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I beg to very much differ with you there. Just a random breakdown

Eagle Rods $350
Forged Pistons $500
Bearings $100
Headgasket $100
ARP Main Studs $85
ARP Head Studs $95
Crank (if you dont have a good one)$250 (at least for a used one)
Machine work and Assembly for block $1000
the machine work includes fitting the bearings, fitting rings, boring the
block, honing, polishing and/or turning the crank, magnafluxing
and a hot tank cleaning off all parts and of course assembly of the
rotating shortblock

That total is $2480 assuming you can find a good used crank. Now for the head work, once you buy valves and stuff, just to get the valve seats cut and the valves properly installed, the labor and machine work alone is $300-400 with no porting and including no parts. Your also not factoring in the little stuff, like a new timing belt, tensioner pulley, idler pulley, hydraulic tensioner, water pump, misc gaskets, oil pump, rear main seal, etc. I spent $700 on just random OEM stuff like that and I get wholesale pricing. With that type of stuff, its not stuff you NEED, but its stuff that you would be foolish if you tried using your old stuff when you had the opportunity to change them and do it right the first time. A complete motor, built and ready to go in, assuming the machine shop is only assembling the block and head seperate, and your bolting it all up and installing it, plan to spend $4,500.

u dont need a 3g ecu u just need a flashable ecu because all ur doing is taking specific wires and using them with a different rom.. And i believe u need 2001 and for the 3g if u wanna get the manual ecu.. Although i got an evo ecu for cheap on evolutionm... U should be fine with two galant ecus one being flashable because when u flash it it will remove the tranny controls..

by the way there are a crap load of 3g people running 15 or close to it on stock internals are you planning on going past 15lbs?

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Originally Posted by Stewi

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Originally Posted by neepar

For $3000 I am sure you could build a bad ass 63/64 with almost all new parts especially of you get everything done right

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I beg to very much differ with you there. Just a random breakdown

Eagle Rods $350
Forged Pistons $500
Bearings $100
Headgasket $100
ARP Main Studs $85
ARP Head Studs $95
Crank (if you dont have a good one)$250 (at least for a used one)
Machine work and Assembly for block $1000
the machine work includes fitting the bearings, fitting rings, boring the
block, honing, polishing and/or turning the crank, magnafluxing
and a hot tank cleaning off all parts and of course assembly of the
rotating shortblock

That total is $2480 assuming you can find a good used crank. Now for the head work, once you buy valves and stuff, just to get the valve seats cut and the valves properly installed, the labor and machine work alone is $300-400 with no porting and including no parts. Your also not factoring in the little stuff, like a new timing belt, tensioner pulley, idler pulley, hydraulic tensioner, water pump, misc gaskets, oil pump, rear main seal, etc. I spent $700 on just random OEM stuff like that and I get wholesale pricing. With that type of stuff, its not stuff you NEED, but its stuff that you would be foolish if you tried using your old stuff when you had the opportunity to change them and do it right the first time. A complete motor, built and ready to go in, assuming the machine shop is only assembling the block and head seperate, and your bolting it all up and installing it, plan to spend $4,500.

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Ok, I maybe off by $1500 but of course that would just depend on how much you spend on machining how much you can do yourself and what deals you can find on parts. But even then still your dealing with a practically new engine that after all is said and done should be quite reliable, or you could go the other way and buy a used evo engine without knowing the maintenance history and spend just as much after you have to replace the same parts you would have to buy anyway. I have been quoted $225 to $300 to machine and assemble the bottom end (of course I supply the parts) and we all knows deals on parts can be found if you look hard enough. At least when and if you spend $4500 you know what you are working with, but I am pretty sure it be could be cheaper than $4500 if you know what you are doing and you know how to find deals on parts. Just looked at car-parts.com low mileage Evo engine with 15,000 miles is $4500 and that is with stock parts and the car has been rolled. So my pricing may be a little off as I did not list everything and price it out but with some smart shopping and a little DIY I think it could be done for about the same cost of buying a used VIII engine which is essentially the point I was trying to make.

arent you still on auto IcedOut? i thoguht that the evoecu flash was for 5-speeders. someone correct me if im wrong

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Originally Posted by neepar

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Originally Posted by Stewi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by neepar

For $3000 I am sure you could build a bad ass 63/64 with almost all new parts especially of you get everything done right

---

I beg to very much differ with you there. Just a random breakdown

Eagle Rods $350
Forged Pistons $500
Bearings $100
Headgasket $100
ARP Main Studs $85
ARP Head Studs $95
Crank (if you dont have a good one)$250 (at least for a used one)
Machine work and Assembly for block $1000
the machine work includes fitting the bearings, fitting rings, boring the
block, honing, polishing and/or turning the crank, magnafluxing
and a hot tank cleaning off all parts and of course assembly of the
rotating shortblock

That total is $2480 assuming you can find a good used crank. Now for the head work, once you buy valves and stuff, just to get the valve seats cut and the valves properly installed, the labor and machine work alone is $300-400 with no porting and including no parts. Your also not factoring in the little stuff, like a new timing belt, tensioner pulley, idler pulley, hydraulic tensioner, water pump, misc gaskets, oil pump, rear main seal, etc. I spent $700 on just random OEM stuff like that and I get wholesale pricing. With that type of stuff, its not stuff you NEED, but its stuff that you would be foolish if you tried using your old stuff when you had the opportunity to change them and do it right the first time. A complete motor, built and ready to go in, assuming the machine shop is only assembling the block and head seperate, and your bolting it all up and installing it, plan to spend $4,500.

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Ok, I maybe off by $1500 but of course that would just depend on how much you spend on machining how much you can do yourself and what deals you can find on parts. But even then still your dealing with a practically new engine that after all is said and done should be quite reliable, or you could go the other way and buy a used evo engine without knowing the maintenance history and spend just as much after you have to replace the same parts you would have to buy anyway. I have been quoted $225 to $300 to machine and assemble the bottom end (of course I supply the parts) and we all knows deals on parts can be found if you look hard enough. At least when and if you spend $4500 you know what you are working with, but I am pretty sure it be could be cheaper than $4500 if you know what you are doing and you know how to find deals on parts. Just looked at car-parts.com low mileage Evo engine with 15,000 miles is $4500 and that is with stock parts and the car has been rolled. So my pricing may be a little off as I did not list everything and price it out but with some smart shopping and a little DIY I think it could be done for about the same cost of buying a used VIII engine which is essentially the point I was trying to make.

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Nah I see your point, and building a motor would be the way to go if you wanted long reliability and high power. Im totally with you on the used EVO motor idea, my first EVO motor was used, imported from Japan, that shit broke in 400 miles, broke a piston into pieces. With them cars, you really dont know what your getting.

qnz i had the swap done almost 9 months ago or more...stewi question, besides the stuff u mentioned for me. should i get better pistons? and cams? like rpw cams or do you think the stocks should be fine?

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Originally Posted by IceDouTGaLanT

qnz i had the swap done almost 9 months ago or more...stewi question, besides the stuff u mentioned for me. should i get better pistons? and cams? like rpw cams or do you think the stocks should be fine?

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It really depends on your horsepower goals. That RPW stuff aint cheap. I would do an EVO headswap before I started messing with RPW valvetrain due to the high cost of the RPW stuff. Everything sort of ties into each other, you cant really do a forged piston install without boring/honing the block, they while its all apart, why wouldnt you get forged rods and a polished crank? See what I mean? With bottom end work, its either all or nothing.

i guess the only reason why i said go get an evo engine rather than a motor built, was because of the fact that i can grab an evo engine from japan so easy cause it's so close to guam. i guess i was talking from my point of view.. but good luck with the project jazz!!