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Reply With Quoteman my pussy is dripping just at the thought of this thing tearing up the road
PHASE 1 -> COMPLETED!!!!
PHASE 2 -> ...very slowly coming along
Phase #1: Parts Collection
I started off with my turbo project as a simple inquiry into what a single turbo setup would look like on the 6G72 (namely the exhaust portion). Well in the thread, a picture surfaced of a pre-built turbo exhaust manifold, that was on sale. The manifold bolted up to the stock manifolds and could bolt on a T3-style turbine (rectangular 4 bolt flange). It also included a 38mm wastegate opening before the turbo itself.
Well I bought it. And that started me off on my turbo adventure (along with a lot information that has suddenly surfaced regarding turbocharging the SOHC 6G72).
June 17th 2005,
I have now accumilated a number of essential parts. First off I bought an emanage with support tools (still need to buy the injector harness). I also bought the turbo itself, alongside 6 reconditioned 360cc injectors. Now for more detail on the parts themselves:
Turbocharger: T3 .48/.40 ~ This turbo is VERY VERY small (especially when you consider the engine its going into). The turbo I bought looks like its in pretty poor condition, though I dont mind since I only need it for a short while. It probably came off an older domestic (2-2.2 liter engine ~ now you see how small this turbo is compared to my engine), and needs to be rebuilt. I bought it for $70 w/$20 shipping.
Emanage: Bought the main unit, and ?Support Tools? which allows you to connect the piggyback into your laptop. Total came to $380.
June 23nd 2005,
Injectors: 360cc low-impedance injectors from a 3000GT VR4. These injectors are reconditioned and flow tested. They cost $40 per injectors (which is an AMAZING deal, since brand new they are $1500 from the dealership, thats right ONE-FIVE-ZERO-ZERO). They come with brand new gromets and o-rings (this is important, as your not supposed to reuse old gromets and o-rings). The fact that their flow tested means a lot! Having injectors all flow the same amount is ALWAYS beneficial. I bought the 360cc from a 3kGT is because of several reasons: 1) They are a direct replacment to our stock injectors 2) They cost a whole lot less than new injectors from places like RC Engineering (who charge $80 per) 3) I dont plan on pushing a whole lot of boost, and dont need anything bigger (like 440cc). Now it should be noted that, the injectors from a VR4 are LOW-IMPIDENCE, where as the injectors in our cars are HIGH-IMPIDENCE. Basicly you will need to purhcase a ?resistor pack? for a VR4 to make them work properly. More on this later. I bought these injectors from: http://injectors4u.com
June 27nd 2005,
PocketLogger: This little device is will allow you to read real-time data directly from your ECU, using a simple PDA. It will display vital data such as knock, narrowband Air/Fuel ratio(AFR), O2, Exhaust Gas Temprature (EGT), Karman freq (aka your MAF values), MAP stuff, ect ect. This is basicly a necessity, and combined with the Emanage, makes for a powerful tunning package (short of a stand-alone).
July 06 2005,
Finished installing the Emanage. Now my AC doesnt work...in the middle of summer, in SoCal.
July 11 2005,
edit: I did NOT win the auction for the crazy-ricer sized turbo. Good thing too. My "small-turbos rock" state of mind is back.
September 8 2005,
Since the last time I updated this little journal, I've bought quite a few stuff. Though looking back, I shouldn't have gotten the T3 that I did. If anything too big may have been a better idea than too small. Either way, with such a tiny turbo, I'm facing high-ass egts.
Well its time to go turbo shopping again. It's funny, this is the part of the build up that I love the most, though in this case it straight up blows ass since I wont be able to finish my turbo project by end of this month (the timeline I had given myself).
Either way, considering how many parts I already have in my possesion, a new turbo + downpipe and I should be set. That is unless more shit comes up...which I'm sure it will.
edit: Later on in the day... The turbo project is going on hold for the time being. Considering the ramifications of using a new turbo altogether, I don't see this finishing up anytime soon (I project around December at earliest). Instead I will be diverting all my funds to getting the car too look nice again. Most of you probably don't know but my car is in terrible condition. I have a massive dent in my rear quarter panel, as well as a major paint problem (oxidation > pwns the fuck out of > Shitsubishi Kapalana X13 black, model years 99-01).
October 6 2005 ~ !day after my bday!,
I hereby declare an end to all major operations in the "parts collection" segment of this project.Ladies and gentlemen, I have bought all the "parts" I need. Some of you may have noticed that I havn't bougt the downpipe yet. Since I can't buy one from Tearstone (don't blame em, its a major part of his kit), I will have to get one custom made. The problem is that, in order to get it custom made the turbo kit will have to be installed to begin with.
January 22 2006
Work has started again. After 3 months of dead-time, Peano helped me find my motivation to finish this project.
This week I practiced welding on Peano's dp. The welds look TERRIBLE, but neverless they are VERY strong (the metal bends AROUND the welded area). Some pics:
Next week hopefuly we will start working on my dp.
Phase #2: Fitting & Installation
March 19 2006
HOLY CRAP its been a while since I've update this. Well let me start off by saying that metal fabrication is NOT easy...but its VERY fun. We started off in Feburary by installing the turbo collector pipes:
Now this is where we ran into a major problem:
With virtually no room between the aluminum radiator fins, and the turbo exhaust manifold, this meant nothing but trouble in the future. Manifolds get hot enough to glow white...Aluminum melts at 1220*F (much less than what the manifold is bound to see). Also in the event that I "floor" it, and then suddenly let off the gas, the engine will buck foward, send the turbo into the radiator.
So with that, Peano and I set about to modify the orignal piping so that I wouldn't destroy my radiator. A month later work we finished "modding" the pipes. When we clean them up, I'll go into detail as to what we had to do to make them fit.
Yesterday Peano and I actually did begin work on the dp. Here is our progress so far, it may not look like much but dammit it took us quite a few hours of "measuring twice, welding once" to get here:
This is the basic setup of how the DP will sit (the red piping is an aluminum intake piping we used for the mock up...I plan to get some straight steel piping this week):
This is how the turbo currently sits (doesn't look like its moved much, but in fact theres quite a bit of room now):
Some random shot of my full exhaust (look very closely and you can barely see where we cut into the rear flange to remove the stubborn stud ~ the other stud is still in their
And finally PROGRESS (the first piece of the DP was the most critical as we couldn't afford any room for error):
A test fit of the FMIC:
Differences between the 99' 8G, and the 00+ 3Gs bumpers:
^ For some reason certain year 8Gs come with a "bumper dampener" (#8 ). Not really sure if its all that useful as its not found on the other years. Either way, it will have to go in order to make room for a fan.
***
Just discovered even more differances with the fronts of our cars. Heres a pic of a bumper-less 3G, compare it with the above pic. You might notice that the 8Gs come with extra "reinforcement" in front of the condesnsor (around the hood latch).
Progress...
Just needs a little bit more modification and I'll finally be set. Next up is the downpipe.
06-05-06
Modification of original turbo manifolds is FINALLY 100% complete. Required no less than 12 tries to finally get it right. Each time it consisted of cutting, welding, testing, and repeating. Ended up with manifolds that have no less than 7 pieces of "new" metal in them. This is how it finally sits:
06-12-06
Finally complete the downpipe. Now I just need to attach it to the rest of the exhaust. Since I will be diverting all funds to fabricating the FMIC piping, I will not have enough 3" pipe/money to make a full 3" exhaust just yet. For the time being I will be attaching the dp to the stock exhaust (directly after where the main cat would sit).
Heres a quick shot of what the pre-turbo piping will probably end up looking like:
Parts already bought:
1.) Turbo exhaust manifolds ~ <span style='color:red'>450</span>
2.) Greddy Emanage w/support tools ~ <span style='color:red'>300</span>
3.) Tranny Cooler ~ <span style='color:red'>20</span>
4.) 6 x 360cc injectors: BDL360 ~ <span style='color:red'>240</span>
5.) PocketLogger w/PDA harness ~ <span style='color:red'>160</span>
6.) Johnnyracecar FMIC ~ <span style='color:red'>215</span>
7.) 6 x 10watt/5.6 ohm Resistors ~ <span style='color:red'>16</span>
8.) 6 x Spark Plugs ~ <span style='color:red'>16</span>
9.) Stock Mk4 Supra BOV ~ <span style='color:red'>41</span>
10.) Cone Filter ~ <span style='color:red'>40</span>
11.) EGT/Boost Guage ~ <span style='color:red'>60</span>
12.) BOV adapter pipe x2 ~ <span style='color:red'>70</span>
13.) Oil Feed/Return lines ~ <span style='color:red'>100</span>
14.) EGT "Type K" Sensor ~ <span style='color:red'>40</span>
15.) Walbro 190 lph pump ~ <span style='color:red'>120</span>
16.) Garrett 60-1 T4 ~ <span style='color:red'>440</span>
17.) O2 Sims (2 or 3) ~ <span style='color:red'>50</span>
18.) Tial 38mm Wastegate ~ <span style='color:red'>230</span>
19.) T4/Tial Flanges/Gaskets ~ <span style='color:red'>20</span>
------------------Total-Cost----------------------------
<span style='color:red'>2628</span>
Parts Needing to be bought:
1.) Oil Pressure Gauge
3.) Flexible Heat Tubing/Radiator Tubing (2.5") + Couplers
4.) Heat Wrap
5.) Piping
6.) Anti-leaking white silicon wrap??? (i.e. the shit they use to screw plumbing pipes together).
...do I even need this shit? Probably not, though it might be a good idea to keep it around...(1) 1/8 BSPT to 1/8 NPT fitting
(1) 1/8 NPT female tee fitting
(1) 1/8 NPT to 3an flare
Misc. Parts Needed:
* TT VR4 calipers
> Mounting bracket
* Need Tranny Flush
* Electronic Boost Controller
* Boost Timer
* SS Brake lines
Tips:
* DO NOT make an open dump with ribbed tubing.
*To adjust brake play, read Service Manual # 35A-17
Installing Emanage
*Remove the AC/Heater unit altogether. This is basicly needed to be done in order to easily access the wires.
*UNDERSTAND the directions FIRST before you start cutting. Make sure the colors of the wires correspond with the correct pin position. Rember the above diagrams ARE correct (except for the below exception).
*Wire/Pin 78 (aka C8 in the neweclipse.org API instructions) is brown in my 99 Galant. Might be the same for you.
*EGT sensor gets tapped into the center front bank runner, 1 inch from the block
*Rear O2 sensor bung needs to be relocated to the turbo manifold (from pre-cat)
*I've just been looking at the first few posts of this thead and the pics.
That said, these arn't even intercoolers for gas engines! The end tanks in all of these are total junk! You need a smooth wide bend in any piping. Other things i see is people talking about making 25psi and seeing 15psi...this is what happens when you have too small of a intercooler, not to big. This is called pressure loss, it's because of retarded end tank design like the ones shown in the first lew posts. It is not because of core size, core size will affect what is referred to as lag...LAG is NOT how long it takes for your turbo to spool (that's called "boost threshold"). Lag is responce time from input of throttle to power change...or "result of input" My next point is that that very last part of the size and fitment problem is the cores deepth...deepth should be kept small...air that is traveling twice as far is being cooled only 25% more. This means average temp is higher and you have made an interheater...only ford and subaru are allowed to make those. ~ Grey Wolf @ Tristarion forums
Random Tuning Info:
^In relation to hooking up a Wideband O2 directly into the Emanage (w/out expensive controller).Q: Does the AFX have an analog output?
A: Yes, t he AFX has a 0 ~ 5V, linear analog output for AFR that can be used as an input to an engine controller or data acquisition system. The analog output signal wire is yellow and is attached to terminal position 3 of the connector that plugs into the controller. The analog output ground wire is brown and is attached to terminal position 4 of the same connector. The output wires are each 12" long and are hidden inside the mesh sleeve. To access the wires, gently pull them out of the sleeve. An output of 0V means 9.00:1 AFR and an output of 5V means 16.00:1 AFR. When the sensor is in air, the analog output will be pinned at 5V (since the AFR of air is infinity).
Mathematically: AFR = 1.4 x Vout + 9 .
~NGK AFX
So, from what I have learned its better to run slightly richer and run max timing advance (that gives you most power) vs to run slightly leaner and not run the same amount of advance. The second, senario gives you less power?* The ecu pulls ~.35 degrees of timing advance for every count of knock, so you can say that for every 3 counts of knock the ecu pulls 1 degree of timing DSMTunersI can understand why you would want to advance timing even more the higher your rpms went, given all else constant. If the pistons are moving at a higher rate and if the rate of combustion in the engine cylinder is constant you would want the fuel to ignite earlier to sorta finish its burn cycle as the piston hits TDC (on its way up, correct?). Since the pistons are traveling fasters at higher rpms you have to start the ignition earlier to finish at the same time.
Great Thread
* Extensive testing with laboratory quality instrumentation on aircraft engines universally indicates that best power is NEVER made at AFRs richer than 12 to 1. Simple Digital Systems
* If it's switching above 100% it's showing lean, and if it's switching below 100% you are running rich. PocketLogger FAQ
* Retarding the ignition timing will generally raise the EGT at the same AFRTuning with EGT
* You can tell when your car's stock ECU is seeing knock with the ECU+ by looking at timing advance at WOT. Generally, timing increases at WOT, but when the stock ECU hears knock, it'll drastically retard timing and you'll see the timing retard in your current ECU+ logs. ECU+
* To see timing in action (in relation to knock), tap the manifold with a rachet. That should produce the right freq to see timing being pulled.
* Speed-Density (aka MAP) vs MAF/MAS in relation to the new Emanage Ultimate: "and being speed density you don't have to worry about the tune drifting according to weather conditions like you would if you were to install it with a mas." 3SI.org
* Detonation will actually cause EGTs to drop. This behavior has fooled a lot of people because they will watch the EGT and think that it is in a low enough range to be safe, the only reason it is low is because the engine is detonating...Any drop from normal EGT should be reason for concern. 3SI.org
<span style='font-size:25pt;line-height:100%'>
LINKS</span>
General:
[url=http://www.stealth316.com]<span style='color:darkblue'>Stealth 316</span> < VERY critical site if your trying to piece together your own turbo kit.
Grape Ape Racing Technical Articals
3SI Forums?
Water Injection Forums
Club3G
Club3G Florida
Home Made Turbo
DSM Tuners < they have a fairly good tuning section
Detonation vs Pre-ignition
Water Injection FAQ (great read)
Wideband O2 FAQ
Tuning: eManage
API Wiring guide
Club3G Wiring diagrams
Emanage FAQ
Tuning: SAFCII
SAFCII Install
RRE Tuning Info
SAFCII Tuning #2
General ECU+PocketLogger:
PocketLogger for Dummies
Tuning Links
ECU Info
General Tuning Info
Closed Loop operation
Fuel:
Injectors for sale
Fuel Injectors Info
Fuel Injectors Worksheet (helps to figure out how big of injectors you want )
Tuning with EGT
Recommended Retailers:
HPAutoWorks < Excellent service, and variety. Heck they even overnighted the damn package for free!
man my pussy is dripping just at the thought of this thing tearing up the road
Lots of good info in there. I really hope this turns out well for you as I know you have put a lot of time into trying something different. Being a V6 owner myself, I am very interested in what kinds of gains you'll get after its all said and done. I think a small turbo is the way to go honestly. Keep us posted on your progress and I'll keep checkin this thread for updates. I'll probably check out some of the links as well to gain some basic knowledge. thanks
8G Galant GTZ-juiced, 275 hp
1G Eclipse GSX-pushin 400 whp-09/22/06 12.33 @ 113mph
The best of both worlds...
Haha, I wont be tearing up anything with my auto. With my 225/40 I can barely chirp my tires. Taking into account turbo lag and all that, I dont think anything will change.Originally Posted by peanotation
Thanks the for the support bro. Ya Im was sick of loosing to other slow cars, so after watching Peano transform his car from a loose vagina to a 12" cock, I decided i would take stab at it (actually I wasnt even planning on going turbo till I found the xtech manifolds on sale). Haha I remeber when Peano had the double decker wing and everything. Now his car is a highway monster.
Ya just about the ONLY reason to go bigger is to be able to bump the boost up. Other than that, getting a larger turbo and running it at the same psi is pretty useless. Afaik, it can even be counter-productive in that you loose some area under the curve (boost comes later), and your EGTs may rise (running the turbo UNDER its effeciency range). Considering I do not plan to ever take my car past 300whp, I dont see a big turbo being all that beneficial.
BUT the ricer side of me (albeit small) wants to go big just for the lag.
Also those links are basicly what got me started. EVerything I know mostly came from those links (as well as convos with the turbo guys like Peano and Leicoolya ~ in fact Im may post portions of the convo with Peano since it helped me to understand a few things really well).
Sounds like you're on your way.
Some of those cost estimates on the "to buy" list seem a tad low though. I wish I could have gotten my gauges and resistor pack for that cheap!
aww. no fmic?
Ya I havnt really figured out how much gauges will comes to. Though the resistor pack estimate is actually over by 3 dollars. Im not purchasing the whole pack itself; im just buying the individual resistors.Sounds like you're on your way.
Some of those cost estimates on the "to buy" list seem a tad low though. I wish I could have gotten my gauges and resistor pack for that cheap!
Dont need one since Im going with water injection. I really dont want to deal with the nightmare of IC piping (nor do I want to have to cut away at my bumper).
I was going to say, you could always go with a side mount...didn't someone have a pic of one installed on an 8G here...but you said that you don't want to deal with the piping issue...Won't you have to keep really close tabs on water level if you go with water Injection, like on longer trips you'd have to stop to fill up with water?
Mayonnaise colored Benz---I push Miracle Whips
-K. West
Boost gauge ran about $60, EGT w/probe was like $120, and FP should run you about $60-$75... all on ebay of course.
i would harly consider intercooler piping a nightmare. anyways, you would have to make charge pipes anyways for the turbo to the throttle body. so whats a few extra bends in the name of reliability and performance?
______________________________
1994 Galant GS-Turbo
Pft took me only a few hours to make my piping. And only had to cut an inch or so out of the back of my bumper! FMIC would be way more reliable. Even with water injection, you still have to make a pipe to go from the turbo to the intake manifold which would be about the same length as any FMIC piping.Ya I havnt really figured out how much gauges will comes to. Though the resistor pack estimate is actually over by 3 dollars. Im not purchasing the whole pack itself; im just buying the individual resistors.Sounds like you're on your way.
Some of those cost estimates on the "to buy" list seem a tad low though. I wish I could have gotten my gauges and resistor pack for that cheap!
Dont need one since Im going with water injection. I really dont want to deal with the nightmare of IC piping (nor do I want to have to cut away at my bumper).
Just food for thought.
7g for life!
Plus FMICs = sex...
Guys thanks for the replys. I will do just about anything to save money. The plans to go water injection were from an early draft (I havnt really paid too much attention to the whole cooling aspect up till now). I guess its time to do a bit of research into some ICs. On a side note, I wonder if an 1st gen side mount would work for me (or even a Supra sm).
edit: Looks like I can grab a 1st gen SMIC for a whole lot less (around $50). Compound that with the fact I will at first use flexible exhaust tubing, makes for a whole lot of money saved (close to $200).
Now you're talkin... I spent about $100 for my SMIC setup, everything included (minus the BOV). You can also use coolant hose (flexible or just find the right bends) instead of flex exhaust tubing.
Yep, the coolant hosing looks good as well.Now you're talkin... I spent about $100 for my SMIC setup, everything included (minus the BOV). You can also use coolant hose (flexible or just find the right bends) instead of flex exhaust tubing.
Ok now Im thinking about my guages. Between the emanage and the datalogger I got a huge amount data already logged. I plan on getting the MSD Knock sensor. While it may tend to pick up a lot of ambient noise, it seems to be able to pick up knock 100% of the time. For gauges I think I will grab boost, & oil + fuel pressure. Not sure what else I would need (I dont think I will be getting a WB02).
i dont think a fuel gauge is needed untill you start fucking with the fuel pressure (i.e. afpr). oil pressure is something i really need to get though. if you're not gonna get a wideband then i think an egt gauge would be good to be your last warning gauge if shit goes downhill. you can also see when the motor is getting grumpy and needs a short boost break.
My FMIC was $300 shipped and IC piping was $100 + couplers/tbolt clamps. Just order the bends you think you will need and either have a shop weld them together(cheaper) or buy couplers which are prone to blowing off w/o a beaded pipe.
Gauges. Boost is a must, EGT is a good warning gauge as well. Only other gauge you might want is an oil temp/pressure gauge. You dont really need a fuel pressure gauge as you wont have an AFPR to change the pressure if you wanted(unless you were planning to buy one).
You can get cheap FMICS at www.johnyracecar.com. Dont get an SMIC, you will regret it...
7g for life!
what he said.
if youre gonna do something, why not do it "right" the first time.
and its www.johnnyracecar.com 2 n's
haha, well if we were gonna do it RIGHT, i think he'd be getting a spearco front mount
Update update:
I just went on a crazy shopping spree and picked up a bunch of stuff. Now I have about $300 worth of parts to aquire before Im finished.
Ohhh boy, its getting exciting now.
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