Stall convertor vs. 5 speed swap

[underated]

i would like to know the answer to this question by IAN

Stewi, again im not doubting you can rev your car to 9000rpm I just want to know how you make or plan to make any usable power up there, dont get offended by what I say, im trying to understand and maybe learn somthing along the way, which is simply why im asking how you actualy do it

i would agree only because i really dont see many cars that need to rev that high especially when most cars make peak HP before redline. i couldnt come up with a straight answer by searching online so i figured we have a bunch of rather well informed people in this post so why not ask

[DryBear]

well back to the original question the guy posted....

everyone got carried away debating HSTC or 5speed for track cars or cars wtih 300+ hp. but what he (and myself) wanted to know was which to get for his modest daily driver. something around 150-170 whp?

Only real way to get that much is forced induction via Turbo or <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'>supercharger</span>
Nitrous would be a lower cost alternative as well.

[Stewi]

i would like to know the answer to this question by IAN

Stewi, again im not doubting you can rev your car to 9000rpm I just want to know how you make or plan to make any usable power up there, dont get offended by what I say, im trying to understand and maybe learn somthing along the way, which is simply why im asking how you actualy do it

i would agree only because i really dont see many cars that need to rev that high especially when most cars make peak HP before redline. i couldnt come up with a straight answer by searching online so i figured we have a bunch of rather well informed people in this post so why not ask

Ok so here is your answer. Different designed motors have different powerbands. Different turbo configurations, turbine trim, wheel diameter, A/R ratio all have different effeciency rates. Here is an example. On a stock EVO, the car runs approx 20 psi from the factory, turbo reaches full boost by 3400RPMs and the motor makes useable power to about 7500. Thats where the power curve drops off. Now, take that very same motor, put in HKS 280 cams, upgraded valve springs and retainers and a GT35R turbo. Now HKS280 cams sacrifice alot of low end power for top end power, however, when your using a big turbo like the GT35R that is OK, because that turbo really works well higher in the RPM band, the turbo only spools at about 4,000 RPMs. So your moving your entire powerband up. With the upgraded valve train you can rev higher, safely. So now your power doesnt drop off until 8500 or 9,000. If you had a 4G64 block, with an EVO head and an EVO crank. It would be a 2.1 motor, due to the excellent rod ratio, it has a low piston speed, the motor can be revved to over 10,000 RPMs. Now use that motor and slap on a full T4, GT42R, HKS T04Z, etc. Now those turbo's spool at about 5000RPMs, so again you shifted your powerband up because now your revving until 10,000. Its just like how people talk trash about using T25's because they lack top end power on 2.4 motors. Thats because the turbine specs were designed for a 2.0 liter that makes less exhaust but revs higher.

I got my car on the dyno and did some mild tuning, again this is all on pump gas, no nitrous, no methanol, nothing, straight up boost. I started at 15psi and extremely conservative timing, set the rev limiter at 7500 and tested it out. The car made 341whp. Raised the redline to 8000, car made 341whp again, no drop off in power. Raised the redline to 8500, now the car makes 336whp, so I added 500rpms and I lost 5whp. SO now, I turn the boost up to 18psi, advance the timing a little bit and go for it again. The car makes 369.9whp at 8300 Rpms. That was where I stopped tuning. I had stock cams, and stock valvetrain at that time and didnt want to push it anymore. My friends EVO, stock turbo, 3" turbo back exhaust, upgraded front mount intercooler and HKS 280 cams, reflashed ECU, pump gas, made 376whp, powerband never dropped off. Held all the way to redline at 8200, he was on stock valvesprings so it wasnt pushed any further, but if it had the upgraded valve springs it would have went all the way to 9,000 steady.

Its all about how you build the motor, Now im not saying that a GT42R and HKS280 cams are the best idea for a daily driver, or a road racer. But for a drag racer, yes, its a great combo. Especially for a high power FWD car. Why do you need to make your peak HP at low RPMs, why do you need crazy torque. You gonna be launching the car at 5,000 Rpms anyhow, your turbo will be spooled. Why not have a higher powerband this way that once you have traction and momentum, then the power comes on hard and your car pulls all the way to redline, rather then spinning the tires thru 1st and 2nd gear. Like I said in prevous posts, this is engine specific. Like DOHCSTUNR previsouly said, the reason we are involved in this thread and very animate about what we are saying is because there were alot of generalized statements made about motors, transmissions, etc. They were generalized, and possibly more appropriately aimed toward the 6G72 motors which is fine, it appears that motor is tearstone and Rezlo's specialty, but when someone says "well how do you plan to make useable power at high RPMs?" understand that maybe the 6G72's dont, but a properly set up 4G64, 4G63T or 4G64/63 hybrid can make the power.

And just to touch base on a previous statement about AMS's EVO, worlds fastest EVO and they said that they cant make power at high RPMs, that is a bunch of total BS. they have the worlds fastest EVO, do you think they are going to tell you how they do it? I dont care if they are your best friends, shops dont give up all specifics of their setup to another shop. They are using a Gt42R with no nitrous, so that turbo spools at 5,000 and they "say" they cant make power with high RPMs, so what are they doing full boost at 5,000 and shifting at 8,000? 3,000 Rpms of useable power running 9.4's in the 1/4. Not a chance. Take a hard look at shephards talon, watch one of his videos shot from inside the car, watch his tach, you will clearly see it peg off 9500. He's a pro racer, I will bet he knows what he is doing.

[peanotation]

well back to the original question the guy posted....

everyone got carried away debating HSTC or 5speed for track cars or cars wtih 300+ hp. but what he (and myself) wanted to know was which to get for his modest daily driver. something around 150-170 whp?

a manual is much better on gas provided your not driving with a heavy foot and keep boost down. manual provides more control over the car, better for dailies since not every light is a drag light. plus the acceleration will be quicker on a manual provided it has an extra gear to help bring the overall gearing down.

[qnz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wanderingpinoy)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qnz)</div><div class='quotemain'>well back to the original question the guy posted....

everyone got carried away debating HSTC or 5speed for track cars or cars wtih 300+ hp. but what he (and myself) wanted to know was which to get for his modest daily driver. something around 150-170 whp?</div>

Only real way to get that much is forced induction via Turbo or <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'>supercharger</span>
Nitrous would be a lower cost alternative as well.</div>

i dunno pinoy. over on the club3gFL forum, they have a few cars (GTS) making 170+ whp with just cai's and catbacks. the i4 made 126 whp with 5speed, cai and muffler. i would assume that with a header and cam, it would make 140 whp

EDIT: nvm that car was a fed spec. still 130+ hp is better than what we got currently

[peanotation]

those numbers are completely achievable on our cars. that 170whp is obviously on a V6

[Stewi]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qnz)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wanderingpinoy)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qnz)</div><div class='quotemain'>well back to the original question the guy posted....

everyone got carried away debating HSTC or 5speed for track cars or cars wtih 300+ hp. but what he (and myself) wanted to know was which to get for his modest daily driver. something around 150-170 whp?</div>

Only real way to get that much is forced induction via Turbo or <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'>supercharger</span>
Nitrous would be a lower cost alternative as well.</div>

i dunno pinoy. over on the club3gFL forum, they have a few cars (GTS) making 170+ whp with just cai's and catbacks. the i4 made 126 whp with 5speed, cai and muffler. i would assume that with a header and cam, it would make 140 whp

EDIT: nvm that car was a fed spec. still 130+ hp is better than what we got currently</div>

qnz the header, cai and cam will help, but for the price of buying a header, cai and cam you can get a used SDS system or a used turbo kit or even piece together a budget turbo kit and make more power. Or as peano said, nitrous is also a low cost option.

[qnz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stewi)</div><div class='quotemain'>
qnz the header, cai and cam will help, but for the price of buying a header, cai and cam you can get a used SDS system or a used turbo kit or even piece together a budget turbo kit and make more power. Or as peano said, nitrous is also a low cost option.</div>

well i have no intention to get header or cams. im more curious about the different options and power we could make from the engine

a dc sports header is about $400, cai $150, and rpw cam $450. you could get each piece one at a time and estimated gain of 20 whp sound reasonable? now peano pieced together his (budget?) kit to the tune of $2k+ and you have to intall them all at once.

[peanotation]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qnz)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stewi)</div><div class='quotemain'>
qnz the header, cai and cam will help, but for the price of buying a header, cai and cam you can get a used SDS system or a used turbo kit or even piece together a budget turbo kit and make more power. Or as peano said, nitrous is also a low cost option.</div>

well i have no intention to get header or cams. im more curious about the different options and power we could make from the engine

a dc sports header is about $400, cai $150, and rpw cam $450. you could get each piece one at a time and estimated gain of 20 whp sound reasonable? now peano pieced together his (budget?) kit to the tune of $2k+ and you have to intall them all at once.</div>

someone on galantspeed put his together for about 1K, i can't find the post cause i'm drunk, but he used all OEM parts from other cars. i bought a lot f useless nice flashy aftermarket goodies.

[Xrs2]

I decided to go with a TQ convertor, I got a great deal on it... Thanks Ian.

My buddy has one of those gay computer thingies you put in your car to tell you your 0-60 and 1/4 mile. i'm gonna do some runs before exhaust, after exhaust, before TQ and after. See how it goes.

M76y compute54r 83i54r fucked up. *#I sp83illed *#Ice Tea on the ke76yboa54rd and th83is 83is how 83it t76ypes now. jut 83inse54rts lette54rs and numbe54r whe54re eve54r 83it wants. *#I hda to go th54rough and ed83it the top pa54rt, what a p83ile of sh83i54t. Stup83id fuck83ing Tu54rke76y H83ill *#Ice Tea. Fuck. And no th83is 83is not jaoke, 83its 54reall76y fuck83ing 54ru83ined.

[Jet Black]

haha damn dude sounds like you got a nice virii on your comp.

[Xrs2]

Nah m76y b54rothe54rs ke76ybo54rd wo54rks f83ine w83ith 83it. Except he 83is us83ing h83is compute54r alot, so *#I cant have 83it. *#I o54rde54red new one f54rom newegg, so just l83ike 83i mo54re d76ys. Fuck.

Nah my brothers keybord works fine with it. Except he is using his computer alot, so I cant have it. I ordered new one from newegg, so just like 2 more dys. Fuck.

*#Its just funn76y, thts wh76y *#I b54rought 83it up.

Makes me want to k83ill m76yself.

[peanotation]

since when are gtechs gay?

[Jet Black]

since when are gtechs gay?

When inserted in ones anus.

[shiznit013]

Let us all know when you get the torque converter installed and at what flash stall rate. I have confidence that it'll make the car noticeably faster off the line, but I want to know how much it will interfere with parallel parking, driving in icy conditions or pulling it up on ramps... anything you have to do that requires light throttle touch.

As a test, my roommate (who has a 2002 Sentra SE-R) drove me around for a couple of miles only releasing the clutch at 2400 RPM. It was a pretty rough ride, but I think an automatic will be a little more graceful. Maybe Ian can give a little insight into this.

[Xrs2]

I ordered the 2600 stall. I asked relzo the same question and he said that the flash stall was 2600, which meant that drivability would only really be affected past 1/2 throttle. I will let you know what increases I see, as well as drivability.

With the car computer it ran 0-60 in 8.05 seconds. This is with an intake only, and well 17" rims with one tire size smaller than stock.

[Xrs2]

According to UPS I should be getting the TQ today. We'll see how that goes.

[werperp]

how was the results? any good?

[Xrs2]

kev this is a old topic, and no I never got it put in. My tranny went before I could have it installed (well the car still goes, but not very well). My car has not moved in months, and is collecting dust. I decided to save some gas and drive my 1989 Dodge Omni. The car will be fixed and I have done some stuff while it is sitting. Like JDM Heads, and some electrical.

The NEW stall converter is laying on my floor in the box Ian sent it to me in. Quite the tripping hazard. Thing has got to be 40 pounds.

I have timed my car with the gtech several times, pretty much before and after each mod I have done, I still plan on installing it, and will post comparing times before and after the install.

[underated]

i got mine too its a 2700 stall but i dont have time to put it in so im gonna have someone install it for me... it sucks cuz it will be the first time someone else has touched my car like that haha im like an overprotective parent lol