Testing the turbo waters...

[98ACR]

I've been kicking the idea around for quite a while, and despite every rational neuron I have I'm looking into turboing the G.

Some ground info: It's a '94 ES with 170k on the ODO. I'm keeping it automatic, period It ain't going manual. The only mods on it are: port & polish of the head/intake manifold, 60mm tb, high flow filter, flowmaster muffler. I've read Curt's old turbo how-to, but that's the only one I've read

So on to the questions:

1. I know I need a data logger. but do I need a 1g one, or the OBDII one? Also, from the site it looks like it's just a cable? If so what else do I need to make it work?

2. If I run all factory goodness as i plan, the factory routing has the MAS sideways and runs down to the turbo. Currently, the lower radiator hose occupies that same realestate. A problem? Also, will I be cutting and lengthening the MAS plug, or will it reach?

3. I'm thinking a 14b run straight off the wastegate spring will net me 6-8 psi which will be plenty for what I want. What size injectors will I need? I don't want to swap over to the low impedance injectors, since i'm not shooting for crazy boost (oh, and I'm doing this thing budget) Stock size is 275cc so my guess-math is that I'll need something in the 325-350 range to get the flow I need but not so much that I need to buy stock in Exxon-Mobil

4. Basically I'm planning on using as many stock 2g parts as I can to not only keep costs down, but also make things easier to go together. I kinda need to know what stock parts I can't use.

5. Realistically how long does it take to turbo a Galant. From start of "actual" work to reliable daily driver? I ask because a co-worker of mine is putting a B18C1 (he assures me that's Honda for "Bad-ass") in his Del Sol but he's been on this project for the better part of 3 months at the cost of over $3k. And he puts his estimate at $2k more for what should have been a bolt-in engine swap.
I'm thinking if I lay in all the ground work before actually starting the turbo install, that'll take a good month and the actual install of the turbo and tuning will take a scant 2-3 weeks. But that's only a guess.

Like I said I'm not looking for a street monster, just something with a little more punch than my high 16 sec turtle currently packs. And I also need to keep the budget under $3k Thanks for any input.

[peanotation]

2. talking about that lower rad. hose? yeah i had to get a generic flexible one from pep boys in the same diameter. it basically let's you manipulate it around the intake pipe. you will need to lengthen the mas's cable

3. best bet is to get a set of 450cc dsm injectors. they're easy to find, i have a set for sale even, and should hold you over for what you need.

5. five days from start to boosting down main street.

i have an afc2, pacesetter exhaust mani and 450cc injectors for sale if you're interested

[seth98esT]

1. Its hard to say. Technically its OBDI and you should be able to use a OBDI cable say from the 1g T/E/L. As for software, there is a few free options, one is Tunerstein and another is MMCD, both of which would be installed on a laptop or Palm.

2. I "believe" I used a lower coolant hose off a 1g. Since I have a 6bolt motor it fit perfect, but might be a bit different for you 4g64 guys. Just go to Autozone, they have a WIDE variety of hoses. They just let me go back in their hose aisle and choose what I wanted. And my MAS plug did not have to be lengthened with the Dejon Tool 3" intake pipe.

3. I agree with Peano. Either go with some stock DSM 450CC injectors in which you would need to wire in a resistor pack that would take all of 5 minutes to install. Or possibly some 390CC injectors from a 1g Turbo Automatic T/E/L. Either way you will need a resistor pack and they probably will be in the same price range so get the 450s.

4. Ehhhhhh depends on your definition of "cant". Really all you are going to be able to easily use is the MAS as it is the same MAS as a 2g Turbo. You will be able to use a lot of stock parts off a 2g and I assume you are going with an SMIC since you want to keep things simple. You can use the stock 2g piping or possibly get a 2g aftermarket SMIC piping kit, but not sure if there would be any cutting involved for the piping. You will need to figure out where you want to put your battery though, by far the easiest is to relocate it to the trunk. Brandon was able to keep his in the stock location but had a weird intake pipe setup.

5. This depends on if you have all the parts required, have done the research needed to install the parts, and have the time to work on it, but it shouldnt take more then a weekend if you work on it more then a few hours a day.

The reliability is going to come down to the tune for the most part. And I would stay clear of the SAFC, that is an old technology and there are a lot better things you could use. SAFC will only control fuel and it doesnt really do it the right way, especially with large injectors past 650cc or so. The tuning routes I would recommend would be Emanage, Megasquirt, Ostrich ECM Emulator(if you have an EPROM ECU), EPROM upgrade from TMO or DSMChips, just to name a few. All offer quite a few options for tuning.

[Edit]
And looking at Peanos pic, it is a very different route vs the 4g63t.

[DOHCstunr]

http://www.dsmjunk.com/index.html

^ there is a guy' sight i got from dsmtuners. he sells all these parts for cheap and its a great way to get what you need. i've purchased from him and i got a great deal on some gear that i still use.

if you browse the few pages on there you will find a bunch of key parts you already need.

the sight is a real paypal checkout sight, so you know you have piece of mind and aren't taking risks.

40 bucks for a 1g bov, 20 bucks for a resistor pack. 55 shipped for a set of 450's. i think he breaks down shipping costs when you purchase more than one item.

[98ACR]

1. Its hard to say. Technically its OBDI and you should be able to use a OBDI cable say from the 1g T/E/L. As for software, there is a few free options, one is Tunerstein and another is MMCD, both of which would be installed on a laptop or Palm.

That dosen't really answer my question. I'm feeling I should actually use the OBDII cable, since I have an OBDII conector. But it also has that odd white connector next to it that I have to plug into as well. So, the cable off of the datalogger site, and it can plug directly into my laptop?

I also really want to stay with high impedance injectors. I guess if I have no choice I'll go with the low impedance ones.

I really wanna use the SAFC, because I'm familiar with it and I know it works. Not to mention it's much cheaper than a stand-alone system or something custom.

Umm...otherwise, any one see any problems with my planned set-up?

[DOHCstunr]

1. Its hard to say. Technically its OBDI and you should be able to use a OBDI cable say from the 1g T/E/L. As for software, there is a few free options, one is Tunerstein and another is MMCD, both of which would be installed on a laptop or Palm.

That dosen't really answer my question. I'm feeling I should actually use the OBDII cable, since I have an OBDII conector. But it also has that odd white connector next to it that I have to plug into as well. So, the cable off of the datalogger site, and it can plug directly into my laptop?

I also really want to stay with high impedance injectors. I guess if I have no choice I'll go with the low impedance ones.

I really wanna use the SAFC, because I'm familiar with it and I know it works. Not to mention it's much cheaper than a stand-alone system or something custom.

Umm...otherwise, any one see any problems with my planned set-up?

don't get the safc it sucks compared to what you can get for the same money.

get the next generation maft

it allows you to do a world of things. eliminate your stock restrictive maf. replace it with a 3" GM maf in a blow through setup, and vent your bov to the atmosphere. quicker throttle response, quicker spoolup.
it also allows you to do somethign very cool that previously was only doable w/ standalone.
its called wot target a/f tracking.

if you hook your maft to a wideband o2, and select your targeted a/f ratio, lets say 10.7:1 or something safe.
it will automatically tune with perfect accuracy to that a/f ratio for every single rpm (in 50 rpm increments) at any boost level.
the cool thing is you only have to hook up the wideband once if you don't want to buy one.
cause once you've done a pull with the target a/f tuning, you can save the tune and stick with it.

it also lets you tune for low mid AND high rpms.
unlike crappy safc2's that only do low and mid.
it can add fuel at +or - 1/2% increments as well. much more precise than your apexi units.

best part is you can have it for around 300 bucks.


oh did i mention that for a little more(down the road) you can get a GM map sensor, and GM boost control solenoid and the unit becomes a full electronic boost controllere with open and closed loop boost control.

oh yeah.
the best part.
the maft setup is completely compadable with tunerpro. the MOST popular program for logging, tuning, and ecu hacking out there.

you will be able to comepletly copntrol the settings of the maftpro through your laptop as well as readback andything you log. or you can just use the tuning interface built into the unit if you don't want to lug around a laptop.


bottom line,

safc sucks balls man

and don't let the brand new one fool you(safcneo or something).
it offers not a single one feature for non vtec engines that woudl be useful to a mitsu guy(over the safc2).

[peanotation]

being an ex-safc2 victim myself i have to say that it sucks, and in the end didn't even work. i never got a rich tune off of it, mostly because the afc doesn't really do what it says it does. it's supposed to lie to the ecu about how much air is coming through the mas so the ecu adds or subtracts fuel as neccessary, but instead it lies to the ecu about the temperature of the air, not the volume.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(4g64.150m.com)</div><div class='quotemain'> If you kept the stock Spyder ECU, It is very important that you keep a POSITIVE STFT and LTFT (Short Term Fuel Trim and Long Term Fuel Trim). The 4G64 Spyder ECU is somewhat unique in this matter. If you have a NEGATIVE fuel trim (even STFT of -5%, with LTFT at ZERO), the ECU will lean out your Air/Fuel mixture badly at WOT (wide open throttle). I'm sure the Mitsubishi engineers did this for emissions reasons, but it caused all kinds of problems when I first started tuning my car. No matter what I did to the SAFC (even added +50% air), I could not get my engine to run the proper rich A/F ratio. Thus, I leaned out the car furthur, so that in closed loop operation it was adding fuel to compensate (i.e. POSITIVE STFT AND LTFT), and all my tuning problems were fixed. This is why you MUST have an OBDII datalogger. It's the only way to see the STFT and LTFT readings.</div>

with that said, i had the same problem with my afc2. to be honest it never really did a god damn thing when i used it in conjuction with my wideband. even when i had it zeroed out, after i removed it my timing changed 4*. it's simply a pos and screws with your timing too much. more frusterating than helpful, seek tuning elsewhere...

what's the point in doing a run, adding 2% fuel accross the board, doing a run again, wideband shows you have exact same a/f, adding 2% fuel, repeat....

[98ACR]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DOHCstunr)</div><div class='quotemain'>
get the next generation maft</div>

Pray tell, where do I procure this miricle box? Or at least look into it on my own?

[seth98esT]

www.maftpro.com

[DOHCstunr]

you can go with the maftpro if you want to go all out.

or for a little less you can just get the 2nd generation maft. which won't ruyn speed density like the pro, but does do all the functions i listed above.

i would prefer the pro if you can wing the cash. its a worthy setup.

[M&amp;T Designs]

I wish I would have known the SAFC was such a POS before I dropped 250 on one.

[seth98esT]

Yah me too. I payed $260 for my SAFC II when it first came out. At the time, it was a cool product as the other tuning systems were still expensive and not as well known.

[M&amp;T Designs]

Let me get this straight, if I go and drop another 300$ on this MAFT setup, I can hook my AEM UEGO wideband to it? I can just set it to run at 11.5:1, and the car will be tuned perfectly? I am very interested in this, as I have very limited tuning experience.

I would need the MAFT box, a GM MAS, and their 2g harness right?


I might try to dump my SAFC on some of the local honda guys if this is all true.

[DOHCstunr]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(M&T Designs)</div><div class='quotemain'>Let me get this straight, if I go and drop another 300$ on this MAFT setup, I can hook my AEM UEGO wideband to it? I can just set it to run at 11.5:1, and the car will be tuned perfectly? I am very interested in this, as I have very limited tuning experience.

I would need the MAFT box, a GM MAS, and their 2g harness right?


I might try to dump my SAFC on some of the local honda guys if this is all true.</div>
yeah it has to be the generation 2 maft.
or even better the maftpro.

11.5 might be a little lean to start out with. i'd start at 11 for you.

but yeah you can set the desired a/f ratio / for each set of rps and it will take care of it for you.

[M&amp;T Designs]

Wow, that seems too easy. I guess I'll have to get it. Thanks for the clarification.