itb's ??

[Shadow19]

Alot of the Honda guys do that as well, however their ecu's are a lot more tunable then ours are, they still run into limitations especially when running ITB's.

You all are not considering the thousands of dollars worth of head work it takes to build an all motor car. There are thinks you can do to a boosted cylinder head that you cant get away with on an all motor car. A mirror finish on the intake side will not suffice for an all motor car, there needs to be more turbulence to properly atomize fuel, but this needs to be done extremely carefully as if you over do it just a little and you will cause massive power loss. This is not to mention the very carefully chosen cam set and stiffer valvesprings and everything else.

Its not as simple as bolting 4 throttle bodies to a flange that mounts them on the head, it takes thousands more put into tuning and building a proper cylinder head to make big power on a small displacement motor especially.

A lot of you make fun of the old school V8 guys, but when it comes to building a naturally aspirated engine they know their shit. From the rough finish on the intake ports to the small hump just before the intake charge hits the valve, it takes a lot of head work to build a strong N/A motor.

Yea my buddy that used to build v-8's taught me how to port heads. He actually taught me about the hump before the intake hits the valves as well as the non mirror finish on the intake for turbulance and whatnot... I forgot what he said about the hump before the valve but i know i ported it how he ports his stuff because he examined the head when i was done... But back to the topic. N/A builds are EXPENSIVE so thats why we boost.

[panda]

i dont understand why everyone keeps saying honda this and honda that. i was asking this because i wanted to know if a glant motor could do it. and if so what where the gains. just out of curiosity. but if you all would like. i'll tell you how a honda can archive it.. but that would be useless, and everyone that knows any better knows N/A is the expensive way to go slow. i just would like to know if a glant motor/ecu/ect. has the capability of doing a itbs modification and if so what would the output of the motor be.. and how would you go about doing it on a 4g64 ect.. to run itbs you dont need to actually have a ported head and stuff.. it helps but it's good to have a ported head ect. on a boost build as well but how many people actually do it?

[6G72gearhead]

i dont understand why everyone keeps saying honda this and honda that. i was asking this because i wanted to know if a glant motor could do it. and if so what where the gains. just out of curiosity. but if you all would like. i'll tell you how a honda can archive it.. but that would be useless, and everyone that knows any better knows N/A is the expensive way to go slow. i just would like to know if a glant motor/ecu/ect. has the capability of doing a itbs modification and if so what would the output of the motor be.. and how would you go about doing it on a 4g64 ect.. to run itbs you dont need to actually have a ported head and stuff.. it helps but it's good to have a ported head ect. on a boost build as well but how many people actually do it?

You have the point right in your grasp but you just can't connect the dots can you. People who build galants are cheap. All motor builds cost a lot for minimal gains on small displacement. Being that people who build galants are usually cheap, spending lots of money on motor builds that won't give much gains especially when there is a better alternative.

What does this all mean? No one has done it. Therefore any guessing done to the power output of an ITB 4G84 is mere speculation and cannot in any way be taken as remotely factual information.

I think 200 whp would be one hell of an N/A build for a 4G64, those motors are unlike honda's in their ability to rev, making boost even more of a necessity to make power.

Now, if you wan't to make N/A hp you are much better off building a V6 as 300 ish whp is an attainable goal. With greater displacement and a fondness for rpm the 6G72/74 would be the application to spend money on ITB's.

Panda, you really have no idea the amount of headwork it takes to make big power N/A, on stock 4G64 porting ITB's would show no real gains over a well designed plenum manifold. Yes you can do it, but why, a plenum will outflow the heads if a throttle body and MAF are properly selected to match, its senseless to endure the extra cost of running a standalone ecu as well the added tuning issues.

[panda]

You have the point right in your grasp but you just can't connect the dots can you. People who build galants are cheap. All motor builds cost a lot for minimal gains on small displacement. Being that people who build galants are usually cheap, spending lots of money on motor builds that won't give much gains especially when there is a better alternative.

What does this all mean? No one has done it. Therefore any guessing done to the power output of an ITB 4G84 is mere speculation and cannot in any way be taken as remotely factual information.

I think 200 whp would be one hell of an N/A build for a 4G64, those motors are unlike honda's in their ability to rev, making boost even more of a necessity to make power.

Now, if you wan't to make N/A hp you are much better off building a V6 as 300 ish whp is an attainable goal. With greater displacement and a fondness for rpm the 6G72/74 would be the application to spend money on ITB's.

Panda, you really have no idea the amount of headwork it takes to make big power N/A, on stock 4G64 porting ITB's would show no real gains over a well designed plenum manifold. Yes you can do it, but why, a plenum will outflow the heads if a throttle body and MAF are properly selected to match, its senseless to endure the extra cost of running a standalone ecu as well the added tuning issues.

that was a damn good explanation .. but as for it not being done before.. and, then being condemned saying it wouldn't do anything.. makes me wonder. i know a N/A setup is about as useful as tits on a bull but as far as power potential without the worries of boost spikes, oil feed lines, and waste gate springs,ect.. i would think the next best thing on lets say a 4g64 would be some type of advanced tb design. i guess i'll go to the pick and pull and get me a bullshit galant with a 4g64 and hook some itbs on it see what they really flow like, power output stuff like that.. got me curious now :D.


speaking of cheap galant owners there is a huge truth about that.. shadow is a cheap ass x10 lol.. always wondered why he was soo cheap.. now i know.. thanks for clearing that up gearhead..

[6G72gearhead]

Really anymore its going towards boost over all motor builds all over the auto industry as its simply cheaper and more reliable to build a boosted motor per gains then an all motor car. There are very few like me who do actual circuit racing that limits induction that keep the all motor builds alive. Sure there are some that do it just because they prefer it, but they are becoming much harder to come by.

Simply put the technology advancements for forced induction have come along way in reliability and longevity. Unless you are class restricted, its more sensible to go F/I as your power will come more plentiful and cheaper.

[boostzealot]

tim that is all too true about finding a true gear head with an NA motor. i personally have kept my car NA because of the proof that the proper build can make power anywhere in the rpm range. considering the specifics of my build, i dont make any torque lower than 205 to the wheels. and thats at 2100rpm. now with the cams i have in place along with the port-matched heads and higher compression, i actually have built an all around motor. i have the low end because of the displacement and compression coupled with the higher flowing cams and intake manifold/TB combo for the top end. now unfortunately the 64 is nothing like the 74 comparitive to the 63 and 72. on the other hand if i was to do the itbs like we talked about way earlier i would benefit a lot more from them considering the fact that with a set of built heads i could take advantage of the direct airflow into the combustion chambers and the displacement. 64's cant necessarily do this considering the head is not designed very well to be able to do that. if you look at heads like what nissan did with the SR20 and QR25, they are engineered to feed the combustion chambers as opposed to just routing the air like the 64 head does. all in all, you would have to do some proper re-engineering to the 64 to get it to be a viable NA motor. you would definately be struggling to make or break the 200whp barrier without race gas and a standalone. oh and a standalone is not needed to make use of a speed density setup, the greddy emanage ultimate is not and it does the conversion just fine.

[6G72gearhead]

Exactly, the amount of head work to make a 64 head flow like it should for an all motor build is just too cost inhibiting.

I'm personally looking at doing a 272/272 cam build. I don't care about making power lower then 4k rpm. If I can make big power between say 4 and 8 that would be fantastic. I think the 272/272 combo will make power higher up then 4k, but then again I want a high revving motor, low end torque be damned. I care most about 30-120 acceleration. Some fancy driving and it should still come out of the hole ok when I need it to. I want to do ITB's but I want to be able to run a filter, which has me at a standstill.

[boostzealot]

i have some designs based off of what ive seen jenvey do with there v6 setups but i think the 272's will be much better with a built set of heads and a higher compression. the stock 9:1 really will limit you. you should go with a 11:1 compression kind of like i did. and you are correct, the 264's i have do well in the mid range and i could actually benefit much more with the 272's considering i could actually lose some low end for grip and use this heavy breathing motor up top. the 72 has the great potential to rev to 8k no problem even on the stock valvetrain but the stock cams wouldnt cooperate at all, nor would the intake mani and heads. tim do you still have the stock mani? that in itself would help if you got rid of it and got the diamante or XG350 mani i tested a while back. i like the XG mani because the runners are huge and the mani is highly customizable and the length is perfect for high rpms as well.

[6G72gearhead]

Yeah, I'm still on the stock intake mani, the heads are very well built, but I think I may need to alter them slightly to make more power.

I'm currently only revving to about 6500 normally, the limit is set to 7500 for rev matching downshifts, its easier if you can out rev your powerband.

I want to go with 11-11.5 compression. With the added overlap of the 272's the higher compression will probably be beneficial as usable compression will be reduced.

Looking at my dyno graphs and afr's I am definitely starving for air up top, so a bigger plenum and throttle body should do me well. At this point I really want to run something similar to the old 6 pack chrysler set up, except with throttle bodies instead of carbs.

[Shadow19]

that was a damn good explanation .. but as for it not being done before.. and, then being condemned saying it wouldn't do anything.. makes me wonder. i know a N/A setup is about as useful as tits on a bull but as far as power potential without the worries of boost spikes, oil feed lines, and waste gate springs,ect.. i would think the next best thing on lets say a 4g64 would be some type of advanced tb design. i guess i'll go to the pick and pull and get me a bullshit galant with a 4g64 and hook some itbs on it see what they really flow like, power output stuff like that.. got me curious now :D.


speaking of cheap galant owners there is a huge truth about that.. shadow is a cheap ass x10 lol.. always wondered why he was soo cheap.. now i know.. thanks for clearing that up gearhead..

If i was rich bitch i wouldnt have bought a galant.... LOL

[panda]

lol.. i likey dis.. fist off gearhead.. they have a filter for the itbs.. i can show ju where to get them if your serious about doing that swap.. but the itbs would really do alot of good on both of you guys motors.. because of the profile of the cams you guys are running or want to run. especially to 8-9k i know a guy right now that has them running he said they really come alive in the higher rpms. cause the length of them plenum is like 3 inches ( gotta do your homework on the motor) lol and above that is tb. so the air isn't getting really any turbulence while it's going in the head.. and with a ported head and a higher profile cam lifting the valves higher so more air can get into the combustion chamber.. i know its not like running boost, but you changed a motor into into a sump pump when ya do that.. granted only x amount of air can get into the combustion chamber.. but it's a hell of a lot more then you where getting with a intake manifold cause the air is limited actually.. so your not even getting more air your getting less air. even if you have a 90mm tb on a huge plenum runners.. cause as soon as one set of valves opens all the air will shoot toward that.. and keeping going back and fourth. because of the chamber at the top of the runners. so a itbs setup would 9-10 times be better then any intake manifold setup.

[panda]

If i was rich bitch i wouldnt have bought a galant.... LOL

and if your daddy wasnt the pepsi man you might have liked coke.. so the point of this is.. deal with it. broke ass lol

[Shadow19]

lol.. i likey dis.. fist off gearhead.. they have a filter for the itbs.. i can show ju where to get them if your serious about doing that swap.. but the itbs would really do alot of good on both of you guys motors.. because of the profile of the cams you guys are running or want to run. especially to 8-9k i know a guy right now that has them running he said they really come alive in the higher rpms. cause the length of them plenum is like 3 inches ( gotta do your homework on the motor) lol and above that is tb. so the air isn't getting really any turbulence while it's going in the head.. and with a ported head and a higher profile cam lifting the valves higher so more air can get into the combustion chamber.. i know its not like running boost, but you changed a motor into into a sump pump when ya do that.. granted only x amount of air can get into the combustion chamber.. but it's a hell of a lot more then you where getting with a intake manifold cause the air is limited actually.. so your not even getting more air your getting less air. even if you have a 90mm tb on a huge plenum runners.. cause as soon as one set of valves opens all the air will shoot toward that.. and keeping going back and fourth. because of the chamber at the top of the runners. so a itbs setup would 9-10 times be better then any intake manifold setup.

You know... IF i didnt know any better.. You really do SOUND like you know what youre talking about. LMAO. Anywho. Ive actually seen a 4g63 with ITB's on youtube. It was a beautiful sounding car but im sure as boost and 6g72 have said its very costly to run a good N/A motor.... After i get my exhaust for my car done im kind of limited to the last little bit of shit i can do to my motor to squeeeze those extra HP out of it but of coarse im limited because of my head... Oh well.. IDC..... the 63t will handle all of those probems sooooooon! Home ported head, 60 mm TB, lightweight flywheel and balance shaft removal shaved 2 seconds off of my 1/8th time...... Cant be unhappy about that ;-)

[panda]

You know... IF i didnt know any better.. You really do SOUND like you know what youre talking about. LMAO. Anywho. Ive actually seen a 4g63 with ITB's on youtube. It was a beautiful sounding car but im sure as boost and 6g72 have said its very costly to run a good N/A motor.... After i get my exhaust for my car done im kind of limited to the last little bit of shit i can do to my motor to squeeeze those extra HP out of it but of coarse im limited because of my head... Oh well.. IDC..... the 63t will handle all of those probems sooooooon! Home ported head, 60 mm TB, lightweight flywheel and balance shaft removal shaved 2 seconds off of my 1/8th time...... Cant be unhappy about that ;-)

yep.. learned it from the great honda hand book. ;) itbs and stickers.. woot add like 5000whp 2sec off the time.. what was the first time when you ran it. cause i dont remember that lol

btw. import rule

#225: N/A is the expensive way to go slow..

[Shadow19]

yep.. learned it from the great honda hand book. ;) itbs and stickers.. woot add like 5000whp 2sec off the time.. what was the first time when you ran it. cause i dont remember that lol

btw. import rule

#225: N/A is the expensive way to go slow..

The first time i ran it was when i was auto and in the car club. i ran like a 12 something which was SHIT! And honda hand book? I thought they only made ones like that to show you how to properly apply stickers and dual exhausts.

[panda]

The first time i ran it was when i was auto and in the car club. i ran like a 12 something which was SHIT! And honda hand book? I thought they only made ones like that to show you how to properly apply stickers and dual exhausts.

the car club. lol.. and you bashing stickers nikka please lol.. but yep the same handbook that shows nubs how to properly rev at hopeful street racers. and short throw shifters.

[boostzealot]

ok ok ok this thread is getting a little off topic. i only bring that up because this could be something that could be accomplished quite easily and could bring some benefits to the table. one being that unmistakable thing called knowledge and proof. i would love to do the itb setup for my car but it kinda takes the driveability out of it considering they would be for power and peak numbers as opposed to daily driving. now, i know that there are some cars that come with itbs stock (skyline gtr, m3, etc.) but at the same time there was a lot of tuning and research to get those systems to run just right and run well.

as anyone may or may not know, itb's are primarily built for throttle response. pending you already have a well efficient motor, itbs will grant you a particular percentage in power increase. now with that said, they do this by increasing the intake velocity into the combustion chambers. with this velocity increased, more air in volume is taken into the chambers. with more air to ignite and more cylinder pressure and the right amount of fuel, you inherently make more power. ultimately, if you have a reworked head, good runner length, and properly sized itbs, you can feasibly make upwards of 40whp from doing an itb swap and tune. but it all depends on your setup and motor efficiency to begin with. no one is going to take a 4g64 put itbs on and tune with an afc and make the said 40whp or even close to that matter without doing some major work.

my setup could make the said power increase with the plans set ahead and going with up to a 42mm tb for each cylinder and tuned with nothing less than a greddy emanage ultimate as it has the means of converting from our karman vortex style maf system to a simple speed density setup. think about it. discuss.

[6G72gearhead]

I think you should do it, my plans more of involve running a Megasquirt ecu. Have you seen the carbon plates that they run across the velocity stacks on F1 cars? I think if I where to run lower plate around the velocity stacks, and use an air filter for say a 340 6 pack challenger, then just run a carb style top plate it would give the response and power of itb's will the benefit of a filter.

[boostzealot]

i was thinking of building a lower manifold that had them oriented in a way that would support a surge tank kind of like the RB26 nismo manifold. that way i could still run a maf sensor instead of fiddling with converting to speed density. the weather changes so much up here and moving from here to lower altitude would really mess with the tune if i was speed density. the thing is that the stock lower manifold couldnt be used and i would have to find a way to plumb the pcv and all. i have it more or less figured out already though and damn is it sexy. CF velocity stacks ftw!

[boostzealot]

nearly came on myself when i saw this setup, especially since im a CF nut.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3D1%26hl%3Den

its about half way down the page. sorry im lazy and would've posted just the pics but ya know.