properly lowering in cities like Los Angeles

[RAZ_76]

Link works for me

Im happy for you, I get this.

[RedGalant2k1]

I know. Thank you for proving my point.

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...-transfer.aspx

and just read the text under the first pic

Yes and no. It just means in their testing (which to us is unfinished) they found it reducing handling characteristics. What springs did they test? Did they test them springs only? With aftermarket struts/shocks? What brands? What kind of testing did they do to determine this?

Just because they have some experience with it, or what their cars to handle a certain way, does it mean that everyone else who differs is 'sinning'? I don't seen anything anywhere on their site that corroborates their claims. I'd challenge them to prove it, post the information as to why they (and engineers) believe this. I'm not saying they don't know at least something. But lets be careful before we automatically believe them.

[RedGalant2k1]

Here is the entire article for those that cannot read it:

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...-transfer.aspx

You could lower your car cheaply with lowering springs but typically these end up hurting your handling as almost every set we have ever tested is too low and too soft and the car bottoms under roll causing irregular handling. The proper way is with a shorter bodied shock which usually means a set of coilovers. This way the car can get lower with out loosing bump travel. These coilovers are made by the Progress Group.

Lowering the center of gravity or CG for short is best accomplished by lowering the car's ride height. It's best because you are lowering the entire mass of the car. Lowering the ride height also has the side effect of improving the car's aerodynamics as well. Lowering is usually accomplished with shorter springs. The smartest approach is to use shorter springs and shorter bodied shock absorbers or struts which maintain stock compression travel at a lower ride height.

You can go too low. Last year Formula D pro drifter Matt Powers was the hero of the hella flush fanboys. In last years trim, Matt's car was leaving a lot of performance on the table. Photo by Larry Chen

There is a point of diminishing returns though. Excessive lowering can change suspension geometry for the worse, including such bad side effects as causing positive camber under roll, causing excessive gain of negative camber under roll and contributing to increased bumpsteer. Over lowering can also cause more body roll by screwing up roll center location. We will get more into the details of what can happen in future editions of this series but lets say that most cars should only be lowered 1-2" because of these mitigating conditions hella flush or not.

This year Matt had to up his game as Formula D is getting a lot tougher. Matt raised his car up and it's working better. We are helping him with his set up too. Photo from our buddies at Speedhunters.

The easiest way to increase track width is to use wider wheels and tires that fill out the wheel wells. This also increases the amount of rubber on the road improving mechanical grip. Using wheel spacers and wheels with a more positive offset can also increase track width. Too much of a positive change in track width can increase the scrub radius. This is the distance from the centerline of the tire's contact patch to a point on the ground where an imaginary line drawn through the ball joints of the suspension meets the ground in the case of a multilink suspension.

[Kamikaze]

Springs won't give you great handling. Springs are just meant to make you lower, kind of stiffen the ride, and give the illusion of better handling because there is seemingly less roll

i have heard that before, but it seems many people on this forum seem to be opposing, such as RAZ_76, so are you saying springs are ONLY useful in any way if you get a shock combo with it?


So again, based on all of the opinions, coilovers will outperform springs/shocks any day. Great handling sounds like music to my ears. However, im still looking at daily driving here.

Struts are in the front shocks are in the back, AGX are dampening adjustable strut/shocks made by KYB, buy them for the 00-05 mitsubishi eclipse. Megans lower approx 2" all around, teins are a favorite throughout the community but they don't drop you enough in my opinion, if you want a bigger drop you would need full coilovers.

I was on the same situation about 1 month ago, I went with the coilovers since AGX and springs would cost me around $700 and coilovers go for around $900 and I think they are going to last longer since agx aren't designed for dropped cars, I wanted to be able to set the height like I wanted, and be low, I wanted durability and I think I achieved a comfy so I'm happy.

What's your definition of comfy?

The idea that I can change my ride height whenever I want seems nice, does comfyness change as you lower or heighten the coilovers? How have your coilovers coped with daily driving? (if your vehicle is your daily driver)


The reason im going such in depth with this is because many of you seems to have switched around, I have money, but only once, so I really want to make the right decision from the first move.

BTW thanks everyone who has replied and answered, godamnnnn people on this forum are more helpful than anywhere else I have been, i remember this civic forum i used to go on back b4 i gave mine to my mom, people were a dick there...

Also to mention, if I could give my idea of too stiff/too soft, I would say my stock suspension is WAY too soft right now.

[RedGalant2k1]

i have heard that before, but it seems many people on this forum seem to be opposing, such as RAZ_76, so are you saying springs are ONLY useful in any way if you get a shock combo with it?

So again, based on all of the opinions, coilovers will outperform springs/shocks any day. Great handling sounds like music to my ears. However, im still looking at daily driving here.

What's your definition of comfy?

The idea that I can change my ride height whenever I want seems nice, does comfyness change as you lower or heighten the coilovers? How have your coilovers coped with daily driving? (if your vehicle is your daily driver)

The reason im going such in depth with this is because many of you seems to have switched around, I have money, but only once, so I really want to make the right decision from the first move.

BTW thanks everyone who has replied and answered, godamnnnn people on this forum are more helpful than anywhere else I have been, i remember this civic forum i used to go on back b4 i gave mine to my mom, people were a dick there...

Also to mention, if I could give my idea of too stiff/too soft, I would say my stock suspension is WAY too soft right now.

This isn't really that in depth of a conversation about suspension. This is just skimming the surface. Stop reading the hype around the internet from people with certain opinions, especially people that tend to bash other groups for no credible reason. Coilovers are the best way to lower the car.

Even the KYB AGX shock body isn't shortened (directly from KYB reps and technical information). The KYB AGX is a adjustable-tuned gas shock (damper), nothing more. A coilover (Megan, D2, K-sport, etc) are shortened body dampers, this is essential so the strut/shock damper isn't being used outside of its useful range.

Most lowering springs (Eibach, Tein, Progress, and others) however do tend to employ factory style progressive rate springs. This does ensure the preservation of your handling, as close to factory specs as possible.

This is taken from the Progress Suspension website:

The heart of a suspension system is the springs. Springs perform five critical jobs. First, they keep the chassis and suspension from bottoming out over bumps. Second, they control the tires over bumps. Third, they control body roll during cornering, chassis squat during acceleration, and chassis dive under braking. Fourth, the springs determine how the load on the tires shifts during braking, cornering, and acceleration. This makes them a pivotal component in establishing the neutral handling balance of the car. And finally, the springs are the major factor in establishing the ride height (ground clearance) of the chassis. The series of compromises needed to create the ideal setup for a given car and performance application require experience, engineering, and testing.

Sport springs should lower the car which also lowers the center of gravity and improves handling performance. But if the springs are not stiff enough at the lower ground clearance, the chassis or suspension will bottom, causing damage to the chassis or suspension. If the springs are too stiff, the ride is horrible and tire contact patch control over bumps deteriorates. For a competition situation, ride comfort is not an issue, but controlling the tire contact patch over bumps is a major concern. Bumpy surfaces require softer springs than smooth surfaces. This compromise is critical.

And that isn't even barely the beginning. You need to understand damper bound and rebound, corner weighting, and a host of other things. You aren't going to even venture down that path unless you plan on racing the car. And lets face it, you aren't going to be doing that anytime soon at least.

So, what are you trying to accomplish by lowering your vehicle? What are your 3 most important criteria that must be met?

[blue8g]

i have heard that before, but it seems many people on this forum seem to be opposing, such as RAZ_76, so are you saying springs are ONLY useful in any way if you get a shock combo with it?

BTW thanks everyone who has replied and answered, godamnnnn people on this forum are more helpful than anywhere else I have been, i remember this civic forum i used to go on back b4 i gave mine to my mom, people were a dick there...

Also to mention, if I could give my idea of too stiff/too soft, I would say my stock suspension is WAY too soft right now.

If it's WAY too soft right now you'll want coil-overs, I had TEIN springs on KYB GR-2 (oem replacements) and it rode just like stock (IMO)

and even new shocks won't do much for 8g's as they are all stock length (like Dave said)

btw Civic owners are douchebags

[blue8g]

Although I think everyone will agree the most important part of improving handling is getting better tires

[RAZ_76]

Although I think everyone will agree the most important part of improving handling is getting better tires

Wider stance will give better handling. How do you accomplish that? By getting wider wheels with more positive offset, wider tires, spacers, but not too wide though or you will rub. Strut bars and sway bars also improve handling, springs and shocks do that to a point. I don't care what all these nimrods are saying. Advice I give comes from suspension I had and how I liked it. People are not all going to agree because we are all different and like different things.

I only speak from experience when I say that the Megan coilovers I had rode like ass. They were great on a track or if you don't mind bouncing around for no reason. I didn't like them at all but they looked nice and I could say I had coilovers. Of course coilovers give good handling, that's because they are so stiff and will give you less body roll...duh.

People will have different opinons, just like anythig else in this world. It does not make them facts. Mine or anyone elses. Some people like to give advice and never even owned coilovers, those are the ones you want to completely ignore because the only advice they have is what they read, something anyone can do.

[Reelax]

just decide how low you want to go first then you will have your answer on what you will have to buy. 0.5" - 1.5" = lowering springs w/ good condition OE dampers; 1.50" - 2.25" = lowering springs w/ KYB AGX (GR2 are basically the same as stock); over 2.25" - go straight to full coilovers which include short body dampers. keep in mind the lower you go, the harsher the ride will be.

i live in LA and my car has been lowered on springs w/ OE dampers (H&R), then cut springs (H&R) w/ aftermarket dampers (GR2), then full coilovers (TEIN SS-P). i am most pleased w/ the coilovers but, then again, my car is lowered around 3"-3.5" now:


H&R top, H&R cut w/ GR2 bottom


TEIN SS-P full coilovers

[ShiZnitH]

Link works for me

from the article

You could lower your car cheaply with lowering springs but typically these end up hurting your handling as almost every set we have ever tested is too low and too soft and the car bottoms under roll causing irregular handling. - Mike Kojima

When I had the KYB Vogtland combination I had big problems with bottomin out. And when on track it was hoorible. Since the springs are much lower than original my front scraped down in every corner. It was so far from coilover handling.
Gonna buy Tein coilovers next season. Much softer ride designed for the streets. My current set, K-Sport is designed for track use only so its like driving with shocks/struts on viagra

[ShiZnitH]

I only speak from experience when I say that the Megan coilovers I had rode like ass. They were great on a track or if you don't mind bouncing around for no reason. I didn't like them at all but they looked nice and I could say I had coilovers. Of course coilovers give good handling, that's because they are so stiff and will give you less body roll...duh.

Unless the damper is empty of oil/gas like mine are now (now, that's bouncy) the bouncing should be minimal with coil-overs. At the moment my ride is resting on the springs, gonna replace them with my KYB/OEM springs for the winter so i can overhaul the K-Sports.
Only comfort problem i have with my coil-overs are that i can feel every little stone on the road up my spine
Also since coil-overs have less bond/rebound u have better braking abilities since all the tires are on the road at all time. And when going over speed bumps i can maintain higher speed over since the springs don't compress that much and ride height is maintained so its easier to clear em (unless u have lowered it to much obviously)

[RAZ_76]

Unless the damper is empty of oil/gas like mine are now (now, that's bouncy) the bouncing should be minimal with coil-overs.

They were brand new and it was bouncy after adjusting them every which way.

[OMEGA PHX]

What's your definition of comfy?

The idea that I can change my ride height whenever I want seems nice, does comfyness change as you lower or heighten the coilovers? How have your coilovers coped with daily driving? (if your vehicle is your daily driver)


The reason im going such in depth with this is because many of you seems to have switched around, I have money, but only once, so I really want to make the right decision from the first move.

BTW thanks everyone who has replied and answered, godamnnnn people on this forum are more helpful than anywhere else I have been, i remember this civic forum i used to go on back b4 i gave mine to my mom, people were a dick there...

Also to mention, if I could give my idea of too stiff/too soft, I would say my stock suspension is WAY too soft right now.

1) Comfy for me means close to OEM, mine are close to that, although with my setting you feel some bump on the highway at high speed, its close to oem and I'm still lowered thats what i wanted out of my suspension

2) I basically bought coilovers since I didn't want to buy springs and not be satisfied with the drop. Also shock/strut durability. I'm daily driving mine and I've been experimenting with the dampening since if you set them too stiff the car will be firm but you are going to jump on your seat, and if you set them too soft then the car is going to be really bouncy and jumpy for any little bump on the road.

As some of the most knowledgeable members have told you decide how much you want to lower the car and that will answer what route to go with.

And remember that when you drop your car with lowering springs you are making the suspension travel shorter and you are more prone to bottom out, with coilovers the it doesn't matter the drop the suspension travel will not change.

[blue8g]

Wider stance will give better handling. How do you accomplish that? By getting wider wheels with more positive offset, wider tires, spacers, but not too wide though or you will rub. Strut bars and sway bars also improve handling, springs and shocks do that to a point. I don't care what all these nimrods are saying. Advice I give comes from suspension I had and how I liked it. People are not all going to agree because we are all different and like different things.

I only speak from experience when I say that the Megan coilovers I had rode like ass. They were great on a track or if you don't mind bouncing around for no reason. I didn't like them at all but they looked nice and I could say I had coilovers. Of course coilovers give good handling, that's because they are so stiff and will give you less body roll...duh.

People will have different opinons, just like anythig else in this world. It does not make them facts. Mine or anyone elses. Some people like to give advice and never even owned coilovers, those are the ones you want to completely ignore because the only advice they have is what they read, something anyone can do.

a more positive offset will provide a narrower track

and a wider track isn't always necessarily a good point, when you go overboard it will hurt the handling.

And also, I have owned coil-overs. and high quality ones at that, not cheap garbage Megan like you

[RedGalant2k1]

a more positive offset will provide a narrower track

and a wider track isn't always necessarily a good point, when you go overboard it will hurt the handling.

And also, I have owned coil-overs. and high quality ones at that, not cheap garbage Megan like you

The same people that make Megan, make D2 (or Ksport, don't remember who exactly).

And Megan have been certainly adequate for me, and many many others on C3G and TGC, I wouldn't call them garbage.

[ShiZnitH]

Those 3 are almost the same but have a few differences.
I know K-Sport is producing about 6-7 types of coil-overs. Dunno about the rest of em.

[blue8g]

The same people that make Megan, make D2 (or Ksport, don't remember who exactly).

And Megan have been certainly adequate for me, and many many others on C3G and TGC, I wouldn't call them garbage.

I know 8/3g guys like them, from everywhere else I hear negative stuff about them.

They're fine for a cheap coil-over set-up. I wouldn't buy them but that's just me.

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/v...e-p-14421.html

Would want if I still had an 8g

[ShiZnitH]

I would go for Tein. More comfort and still great handling :) A couple of my m8s has it and lovin it :D

[E_Emerson88]

wow, i think you guys went more technical then the OP expected. if you want Coilovers, i say you go with Tien: a brand that is reputable and trustworthy, what else do you need? if you want springs, then choose a spring to your liking. good luck =]

[Kamikaze]

just decide how low you want to go first then you will have your answer on what you will have to buy. 0.5" - 1.5" = lowering springs w/ good condition OE dampers; 1.50" - 2.25" = lowering springs w/ KYB AGX (GR2 are basically the same as stock); over 2.25" - go straight to full coilovers which include short body dampers. keep in mind the lower you go, the harsher the ride will be.

i live in LA and my car has been lowered on springs w/ OE dampers (H&R), then cut springs (H&R) w/ aftermarket dampers (GR2), then full coilovers (TEIN SS-P). i am most pleased w/ the coilovers but, then again, my car is lowered around 3"-3.5" now:


H&R top, H&R cut w/ GR2 bottom


TEIN SS-P full coilovers

alright alright that pretty much answers it for me, since it'll be me daily drive, and i dnt wanna go more than 2 inches so ill go with the KYB AGX n gd springs.

This isn't really that in depth of a conversation about suspension. This is just skimming the surface. Stop reading the hype around the internet from people with certain opinions, especially people that tend to bash other groups for no credible reason. Coilovers are the best way to lower the car.

Even the KYB AGX shock body isn't shortened (directly from KYB reps and technical information). The KYB AGX is a adjustable-tuned gas shock (damper), nothing more. A coilover (Megan, D2, K-sport, etc) are shortened body dampers, this is essential so the strut/shock damper isn't being used outside of its useful range.

Most lowering springs (Eibach, Tein, Progress, and others) however do tend to employ factory style progressive rate springs. This does ensure the preservation of your handling, as close to factory specs as possible.

This is taken from the Progress Suspension website:



And that isn't even barely the beginning. You need to understand damper bound and rebound, corner weighting, and a host of other things. You aren't going to even venture down that path unless you plan on racing the car. And lets face it, you aren't going to be doing that anytime soon at least.

So, what are you trying to accomplish by lowering your vehicle? What are your 3 most important criteria that must be met?

Lol you got a little bit too serious there, you're right its not "in depth" like I sayin earlier, you can have that one you win.

However, you're right, I won't be racing the car anytime soon. As I stated that it would be my daily driver, I dont want to go as deep with my suspension as you're talking, because im not trying to shave off a second of every lap.

If I wanna have my car lowered, I'll have my car lowered. But since you asked, I'll be honest. My first criteria is better handling, because I feel like it sucks really bad. My civic with everything stock (whom I gave to my mom after buying my galant) had much much better handling than my G, so I really feel like it sucks and can't go more than 25 around any corner... I'm not confident when cornering, and that's a very big one for me.

My second criteria is purely looks. A car just looks straight up badass when lowered. I'm sorry if this isn't good enough of a reason, but its just me (and prolly 90% of everyone else)

My third criteria is that 1 and 2 must be met.

As you probably guessed, I'm not the average grandpa driver, I'm not a crazy ass driver 24/7, but when I do speed, swerve, and high speed corner, I like to be confident and know my machine can handle it.