Galantman03's 8G Build

[coconut]

Damn those rears are out there!! lol.

That lawn mower is loving the look too!!
Saying to itself,(come here GIVE ME SOME OF THAT FATASS!!)

[xd_01]

Im looking forward to what you have in store for the rear, cnc'ed upper control arms' possibly? I hate teasers and you always do things big so it must be good.

Anyway I was in a similar situation with pulling and rolling my front fenders, luckily I wasn't trying to fit 295mm wide tires up front but I what I discovered its easier to roll and pull the rears. The problem is the fender isn't stiff so once you get a good roll going the arch is gonna shrink pulling in the rocker side edge of the panel and the bumper side. Mines was more difficult since I don't have any of the factory bolts on the bumper cover just a quick release latch so that made it shrink easier. So the more you start to roll the more it shrinks and pulls in these areas. I got to the point were it was enough and I had a good mount of shrinkage on and I was able to pull back the bumper cover side enough to look decent but the rocker panel side was a different story. There was no real good way to pull it back out.

I don't really care to much about aeshetics so it wasn't a big deal to me but Im not gonna try to butcher my car neither. The next time I try to work the fenders which will be soon I think Ill make a relief cut at the inner lip of the arch on both ends and buy this tool that Eastwood makes that folds over the edge of the lip completely flat (supposedly). Its about a $50 so its worth a try I guess. Im hoping this will allow for a little more flexibility when pulling and rolling.

Also like you were saying you may have to tub the front, I had to hammer in the lip where the plastic covers bolt to. They where rubbing really bad and that was enough to clear so Im guessing your gonna have the same problem but probably worst. In the end after a visit to the track it was still rubbing really bad so I raised all 4 corners by 1/2" and that did the trick.

Also I used a bat to do all the rolling lots of people say it cant be done but I did it and it worked fine.

And whats wrong with spacers? Ive never had any issues with them. Ive got 10mm up front with extended ARP studs all around with no problems.

[Galantman03]

Damn those rears are out there!! lol.

That lawn mower is loving the look too!!
Saying to itself,(come here GIVE ME SOME OF THAT FATASS!!)

LMAO!

Im looking forward to what you have in store for the rear, cnc'ed upper control arms' possibly? I hate teasers and you always do things big so it must be good.

There really isn't a reason to cnc control arms anymore, or the rear knuckle. I mean the tire cleared plenty with a 10mm spacer. I thought about using evo rear knuckles, and what not but that would be a pain as they use a totally different shock mount system. Using the evo rear knuckle set up would get rid of the upper control and the upper knuckle mount, which means I could run and even wider tire is I chose to at some point. The only limit there would be our shock body then, but thats a lot of work, and quite expensive honestly and idk if I really want to do that, yet... maybe for my senior project I could do something like that, that would be quite fun haha.

Anyway I was in a similar situation with pulling and rolling my front fenders, luckily I wasn't trying to fit 295mm wide tires up front but I what I discovered its easier to roll and pull the rears. The problem is the fender isn't stiff so once you get a good roll going the arch is gonna shrink pulling in the rocker side edge of the panel and the bumper side. Mines was more difficult since I don't have any of the factory bolts on the bumper cover just a quick release latch so that made it shrink easier. So the more you start to roll the more it shrinks and pulls in these areas. I got to the point were it was enough and I had a good mount of shrinkage on and I was able to pull back the bumper cover side enough to look decent but the rocker panel side was a different story. There was no real good way to pull it back out.

Also like you were saying you may have to tub the front, I had to hammer in the lip where the plastic covers bolt to. They where rubbing really bad and that was enough to clear so Im guessing your gonna have the same problem but probably worst. In the end after a visit to the track it was still rubbing really bad so I raised all 4 corners by 1/2" and that did the trick.

As of right now, I'm leaning towards getting rid of the fender liner completely, POR the entire underside of the fender, and seal up the wiring to make 100% water proof were the boot goes through the firewall

Also I used a bat to do all the rolling lots of people say it cant be done but I did it and it worked fine.

If you're talking about me rolling the fronts, I was actually thinking about cutting the fender, spacing it out, and then filling in the gap with metal and welding it all up. That way the front looks oem but just wider I guess. For the rears, I'm going to cut out what has to be removed, roll what I can, and then use some structural adhesive to hold the outer quarter panel to the inner quarter panel, that way its still somewhat strong.

And whats wrong with spacers? Ive never had any issues with them. Ive got 10mm up front with extended ARP studs all around with no problems.

Nothing wrong with spacers just personal preference I suppose.

[xd_01]

Yea I like that style of widening fenders, its got that e30 M3 look. Looking forward to it.

[mko]

if you get arched flare for the rear then the front should match.

just like this

[xd_01]

yea I like those over fenders, that's the route Im taking in the future if I go with real wide tires for sure. You have to do some serious cutting of the rear 1/4 to make them work or really tire just for tire clearance so you have to be pretty committed, her a tutorial I found
http://www.rs25.com/forums/f105/t140...er-flares.html

[6G72gearhead]

I'm going to go with over fenders like that when I go really wide up front, but with a FWD car I don't see the need to match the size out back, obviously you don't have that problem so go square fitment all the way around.

I would seriously suggest checking the tire sweep as it passes by the rear of the front arches, It really looks close on my 255's and going much wider would certainly cause clearance issues. In my spare time I'm working on a control arm to fix these issues while increasing caster, but that is going to take awhile. The other option for your inner fender clearance up front is to use the lca to push the wheel outward in order to increase camber while using the top plate to dial it back into how it should be.

[Galantman03]

I'm going to go with over fenders like that when I go really wide up front, but with a FWD car I don't see the need to match the size out back, obviously you don't have that problem so go square fitment all the way around.

I would seriously suggest checking the tire sweep as it passes by the rear of the front arches, It really looks close on my 255's and going much wider would certainly cause clearance issues. In my spare time I'm working on a control arm to fix these issues while increasing caster, but that is going to take awhile. The other option for your inner fender clearance up front is to use the lca to push the wheel outward in order to increase camber while using the top plate to dial it back into how it should be.

I just wasn't feeling the over fenders.

Yes I know what is entailed for clearance issues. I know I have to sweep the steering, and I know I have to check it during cornering at high speeds. I am very aware of everything that will have to be checked, and done. This wasn't a on a whim purchase, been looking at stuff on the car for about a year now, and just need to make some progress.
As far as the LCA, I'm not going to modify the Evo 8 LCAs, I might look at getting some evo x lcas, since they are wider and bolt on to my subframe now, but I'm leaning towards a no on that one. I think all in all, the only thing that will be extremely modified will be the front fenders, I think I can push stuff out of the way with a BFH, I mean I did make 2.5 inches of room for the tcase with a BFH. So it looks promising

[6G72gearhead]

Haha, I gotcha, for the amount of work you've done with the car I'd do an all metal widebody, it just fits the car way better.

The BFH method is good, but for me the rulebook says no to doing much to the unibody to allow clearance, so I gotta find other ways to make it work. It did appear to me that there is the possibility of interference with clutch pedal travel if the drivers side rear inner was moved in very much. Been trying to gauge how much area the dead pedal takes up.

That wheel and combo looks sick, so good luck to you.

[xd_01]

Rules suck

[demond0d5]

hey timtom to fix your clutch travel issue just throw some washers on the clutch pedal bolts. remember all the issues I was having with the clutch/brake pedals being all wonky when I did the swap? how I was hitting the floor with the clutch and it was thrown way over since I didn't have the washers, or didn't have the right ones, or whatever the hell it was...throw a washer or 6 on the bottom bolt, that'll push it out a bit so it doesn't hit the floor.

as far as the fender issue, im with gearhead...metal and weld. may as well just make your own fenders, instead of just glassing something over the top of them and cutting the inside. I think itll just be more "authentic" and your build is sick...no need to compromise ya know

[Galantman03]

Haha, I gotcha, for the amount of work you've done with the car I'd do an all metal widebody, it just fits the car way better.

The BFH method is good, but for me the rulebook says no to doing much to the unibody to allow clearance, so I gotta find other ways to make it work. It did appear to me that there is the possibility of interference with clutch pedal travel if the drivers side rear inner was moved in very much. Been trying to gauge how much area the dead pedal takes up.

That wheel and combo looks sick, so good luck to you.

I would love to do an all metal widebody, but holy crap thats alot of work lol, and I don't have access to metal rollers or anything to shape them the way I would want to in the back. The back end for sure is going to be fiberglass, I think bolt on for now, with no visible bolts, and then maybe later on I will mold them. Only thing I'm worried about is when the car is up to snuff and I launch it, I wonder how much the body will twist ect.

Rules suck

Rules? What rules... haha.
I checked out the rule book for my local autox, and I'm screwed for points just before I start. But I'm going to try to do it for fun anyways.
I mean some questions where like:
Engine swap:
Turbo:
Bigger brakes:
ect I was like well crap haha....

hey timtom to fix your clutch travel issue just throw some washers on the clutch pedal bolts. remember all the issues I was having with the clutch/brake pedals being all wonky when I did the swap? how I was hitting the floor with the clutch and it was thrown way over since I didn't have the washers, or didn't have the right ones, or whatever the hell it was...throw a washer or 6 on the bottom bolt, that'll push it out a bit so it doesn't hit the floor.

as far as the fender issue, im with gearhead...metal and weld. may as well just make your own fenders, instead of just glassing something over the top of them and cutting the inside. I think itll just be more "authentic" and your build is sick...no need to compromise ya know

You have to remember that the clutch pedal have been known to break as they are already flimsy. I haven't had an issue since the new clutch set up because the amount for fully engaged and fully disengaged, my pedal travels maybe 3/8 of an inch MAX. I think its mostly 1/4 inch

I still might do the fronts metal, as I can physically remove the front fenders.


So I checked the travel sweep, and its kind of interesting. Bare with as this might be confusing to some people haha.
I checked the sweep with the car jacked up to get an idea of what might be issues. Well, the brake line bracket is one, so with the car on the ground it would be running into the frame itself. So I throw the 10mm spacer on the front. Fixed everything on the inside scrub radius. I'm thinking about running a 15mm spacer on the front now because (stay with me) 18x8 +30mm (old) to 18x10.5 +15 (new) moved my inside scrub radius 17mm CLOSER to the frame. So if I run a 15mm spacer in the fronts, I'm golden with the frame because I'm adding only 2mm at that point.

With the spacer on for the outside scrub radius, I need to remove the fender liner to get a better idea, but it looks like I need to move the maybe 3/4 of an inch max. For the front of the tire on the outside I have to trim the bumper(expected) and really looks like the only cutting and rewelding I will have to do is where the front liner bolts to the metal, as that seam hits right now, so just move it up maybe 2 or 3 inches, which is not bad at all, I was looking to do a shaved engine bay by welding everything some time. The way its looking, I might not get to enjoy the car this summer hahaha. hmm food for thought though on the fitting issues for the front. I ran 10mm since I put the brembos on, should I go 15mm to just clear or should I run 20mm?

I should note that I would like to run extended studs with the 15mm spacer, not the spacer that bolts on and then you mount the tire to the spacer. Twice as many fail points that I don't want

[6G72gearhead]

I'm a firm believer in trying to get a wheel with the offset as absolutely close to the intended point as possible in order to use as little, or no, spacer as possible. Sounds like a 0 offset wheel, if available is what you are looking for. Even with using the same lug you are adding another surface that has to be held which is still a potential stress riser, granted not as bad as counting on 2 sets of lugs, but its still a greater risk. ARP studs for an Evo should be the ticket for having a harder stud on there.

For the widebody fiberglass would probably be the best, then cut out the top of the rear wheel arch and weld a panel in to fill it out. One of our customers is doing an all metal widebody on a 5 series and they are having issues extending out the door and making it match the rear arches, this is all after the hundreds of hours already in the thing. I always thought about doing an evo style rear arch in glass, but for my goals it would end up being more weight, and my car isn't that pretty anyways.

Rules do suck, especially when you are building for a specific race class.

[xd_01]

What do you mean by inside/outside scrub radius?

[xd_01]

and how are you measuring this?

[Galantman03]

I'm a firm believer in trying to get a wheel with the offset as absolutely close to the intended point as possible in order to use as little, or no, spacer as possible. Sounds like a 0 offset wheel, if available is what you are looking for. Even with using the same lug you are adding another surface that has to be held which is still a potential stress riser, granted not as bad as counting on 2 sets of lugs, but its still a greater risk. ARP studs for an Evo should be the ticket for having a harder stud on there.

Well this is the lowest offset in this wheel design and I'm kinda the test subject on wide wheels anyways, it seems. But right now, the info is 18x10.5 0++ 295/35 tire would clear the inside scrub and a +5 would clear the rear knuckle.

What do you mean by inside/outside scrub radius?

and how are you measuring this?

What I mean is where the tire rubs on the inside of the tire (frame clearance) and the outside scrub (fenders, liners and body metal)
I had to call it something in my notes, to keep everything straight in my head, so I deemed it the inside scrub radius (includes the tire) and the outside scrub radius.
As far as measuring? No, just comparing my clearances with the tire mounted on the car.
Hopefully it makes sense. I'l try to document everything when I start ripping into it, middle of May I think as school is picking up right now.

[xd_01]

Got it, I had a feeling that's what you meant. Scrub radius is actually were the center of the tires contact patch intersect with the axis of your rotating suspension, so when you said inside outside I got a little confused and had to look it up to be sure.

Anyway Im never good with numbers Im the type that has to draw it out to get a visual and that's what I did with your two different wheel specs. It all sounds good to me but in the grand scheme 2mm isn't much but better then nothing. You still have to account for side wall movement at high speeds and all that but good work so far I don't think anyone here has taking it this far when comes to calculating wheel fitment.

The real test is a road test but you can simulate it just by putting the car on stands, removing the coil from your dampner and using a floor jack to raise your suspension arm up as high is it can go then turn your wheel to full lock and see where it comes close to hitting. This what I did to the my rears when I rolled the 1/4's. Only difference was I only had to disconnect the coilover from the lower mount so much easier. I was actually to lazy to do this on the front suspension lol.

Also 15 mm spacer on extended ARP studs may be to close for comfort in my opinion. I my set up with a 10mm I don't have much thread sticking out and my lugs are regular short steel lugs.

[Galantman03]

Oh well I didn't know that haha.

I think what I will ended up doing is getting a set of stock struts, and bolt them in and just cycle the travel in and out. I might even try to set the car on the ground without an springs, and maybe have the car sit real low, maybe 2 inches off the ground from the frame maybe lower, and just physically check my distances on all the wheels with the front fenders off. I think if I can get my clearances good being that low, the car should be able to be good at any body roll that I have with the d2s.

Maybe even for a road test, just make the car static, real low again just to check steering clearances. idk there is a lot of ways I can go about this.

What do you mean to close for comfort? If I get a 15mm spacers, and studs that are 14mm longer than stock, it will have 1mm less threadable distance, which is very close.

[xd_01]

I don't remember how long they are but when I put my lugs on I only have 3-4 threads showing, if I had a 15mm spacer those short lugs would be to the end almost. For me that's to close to the end but just my preference but when Im at the track after each session I re-torque the lugs and sometimes they move 1/8 -1/4 turn sometimes more but that's after going hard for 25-30 minutes straight. Maybe they would loosen more if they were closer to the starter threads, Im not sure but Im glad I can get away with 10mm spacer.

I like your idea the stock strut, beats taking off the coil but then you don't have the camber plate so your camber might not be the same during the test fit. Would you have to cut the spring perch in order for those wheel/tire combo to clear?

[xd_01]

found some pics




these were my old wheels, no spacers and fancy lugs.