im sorry but at 165 torque at the wheels on a 3k plus pound car with an auto tranny i dont think you will be having traction problems with the sds. i used to drive a galant 4g64 and i know how incredibly weak first gear is. what i would want is a system that gives power in the entire powerband, not just at the top end. my current car has low end torque and believe me its a very nice thing to have. and the top end kills to. btw my wheel numbers are very similar to those of a 4g64 sds'ed car and i have a good manual tranny and awd. so i have experienced both ends of the spectrum with the galant and the a4.
im sayin with 300 whp or whatever your aiming for...traction will be a problem. Drive a fwd in the strip and you will see how hard it is to keep the wheels from spiining...
sabzi...thats expexted with a motor that has balls on a street tire..get yourself some drag radials and you relaly wont feel that anymore
with a five speed i agree with you and also if you have 300 hp, but neither of those things are the case with 8g 4g64's. so the point is not valid.
we arent talkin about stock, we are talking about modded
Originally Posted by mark1
if i spent 3000+ dollars for a kit and ran a 15, i would be kicking myself in the balls repeatedly.
man you have to put yourself in the 8ger's shoes. they get only like 180 hp 160 torque from the sds. that most likely isnt gonna be getting you in the 14's. especially with that $hitty stock auto tranny. now 7g's with their lighter curb weight and five speed trannys have more potential. as for kicking yourself in the balls, i wonder why im not driving a 4g64 anymore. the cost and loss of reliability for speed is just not a worthwhile trade imo. its just not meant to be fast.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mark1)</div><div class='quotemain'>man you have to put yourself in the 8ger's shoes. Â*they get only like 180 hp 160 torque from the sds. Â*that most likely isnt gonna be getting you in the 14's. Â*especially with that $hitty stock auto tranny. Â*now 7g's with their lighter curb weight and five speed trannys have more potential. Â*as for kicking yourself in the balls, i wonder why im not driving a 4g64 anymore. Â*the cost and loss of reliability for speed is just not a worthwhile trade imo. Â*its just not meant to be fast.</div>
VERY true. The engine IMO isnt a really performance oriented engine, It makes 140 fucking horsepower out of a 2.4 liter engine, WEAKSAUCE, how can a gsr make 180 out of 1.8 liters, a civic si 160 out of 1.6 liters and us 140 out of 2.4 liters. Its just an Econo engine to be honest. Although if built properly it will smoke the shit out of many cars, but to build that motor and have an engine management system to make it run decent will be over 7000 dollars, swap it IMO. I love my galant but not enough to pay 3000 for a supercharger, when i can pay 2000 for a dsm and run laps around my galant.
And no one please tell me the 4g64 can be made fast for cheap. Because nitrous can make a Model Fucking T go fast.
7000 dollars to make a 4g64 fast? Wow, I think you guys are over-shooting this a bit. I really would like to know what you are wasting 7000 on to make a 7g fast and still cant' break the 14's.
If a 4g64 is slow, explain why DSM guys are now using hybrid setups to get very high horsepower numbers with low turbo spool time? The 2.4 motor is a great asset in reducing the turbo spool duration.
Whoever said 300 hp isn't doable or is questionable in any form on a 4g64 is talking out of their ass. Plain and simple. Dsmtalk.com has several hybrid motors running very well. Here is one example.
4G64 junkyard motor - 64SA piston code on top of pistons = 9.5:1 CR
Results: 300whp @ 6200rpm on an AWD dynojet; ~275 ft-lb from 3500-6000rpm
Conditions: ~800' elevation, ~85 deg F, 29.90 in-Hg
Setup: 91 octane, 13psi boost, 15 deg timing at 7k
Components: Big everything
Those RPMs are awful low for any dsm. That is simply the beauty of the increased displacement and the longer stroke of a 4g64 over a 4g63. No, you can't rev it to 9000 RPM without first having done all the rest of the motor work to go with it, but the fact is why rev it harder if you already have 300 hp at 6000?
The overall costs of a hybrid 4g64 or sohc 4g64 turbo setup are going to be really cheap. The motors are usaully available in junkyards, go for well under 500 bux, and the eclipse heads are also easy to find. For well under 1000 bucks you can get a motor and head. That is a steal for a fresh motor to get working on. So starting from there you have a brand new motor and head and I'll be liberal here, call it 1000 bux, or if you want to you can use your stock bottom end and just save youself 500 bucks. Eclipse head -300 bucks. Next AFC, injectors, coilpacks, welding the holes in the block, gaskets, timing belt, cam gears and then the turbo parts. Obivously that is a very open decision based on your wallet. Point is, please do not come here and say that a 4g64 is weak or incapable of being worked on for under x price point. Obivously all motors will not perform well if you dont' take the time to do it right. THere is no such thing as an "easy build" or a cheap way out.
I think i'm done now.
Oh wait...why in the bloddy hell would you want to use a supercharger kit? I know this has been beaten with a stick way too many times and I am not trying to knock anybody who has one already. They are putting down excellent numbers are looking really nice. Personally, it is not the way to go for me. I personally look at this in terms of time on full boost versus time off boost and when the power is coming.
The supercharger kits all will give you between 8-10 psi, right? Well this is kinda misleading. Peak boost is only reached as you reach peak RPM. The boost is incremetal with your RPMs, thus you reach full boost for only a few seconds. With a turbo setup, you reach full spool at approximatly 2500-3000 revs. This again will vary with your choice of turbo. So let's analyze this. 15-20 psi for a powerband of 3000 rpms to 6000 or full incremetal boost from 0-6000 only reaching full, smaller boost numbers, at 6000 RPM? The choice is pretty simple.
Next point, a term nobody seems to understand. Useable power. This is one that I will never understand but here goes. American guys make big horsepower anywhere in the powerband with big engines and big displacement and big everything. Usually all domestics are beasts compared to the imports. However there is one thing that they never seem to do, that is learn to use the power they have when they have it. I've seen 1000+hp trans am's not even hook up at all until about halfway down the quarter mile. With a turbo setup, all of your power is goign to be on the top end of all your gears. Yes you will have a torque monster in a 2.4 motor versus the usual dsm 2 liter, but the point is you will have sufficient launch to get you off the line and into a good spool relatively quick. That same 1000+hp trans am that couldn't hookup was running next to a 1gina2g with a big 16g and a nice manifiold. That is it. The result, the DSM lost by a few tenths. The GSX ran a 11.1 consistenly all night. The trans am ran a 10.8. My point here, if you total out the expenses of that GSX, and compare that to the expenses of that trans am or just about any other imaginable car, then the results are staggering. A clipped 16g is only going to cost you about 700 or so dollars and the manifold isn't that bad either, and a few tweaks here and there and you run very low 11s?????
okay...now i think i'm done here...
LOW 11S ON A 16G. WOW wake up seriously, ill get into that a little later
On a sidenote,
Turbo the 4g64-2000 ABOUT
Get a built trans for all you auto guys-3000 about
Okay you got a turbo 4g64 that is now running numbers close to a stock gs-t.
YOU WILL need to do a shitload of tuning to get that turbo motor running well. Hence a standalone, diff fuel maps, timing adjustments. We have a built GSR , turbo, etc. It runs like shit, know why? cuz you will need a standalone to get taht thing running right. AFC will help but until you get a standalone or a VPC or something you gonna be stuck at 200.
Not to mention when you turbocharge the 4g64 , 2000 is for stock parts. if you want to run 250 whp your gonna need some other shit. 7000 is to get it running right. Sure we can turbo a 4g64 and do it for 3000. But when you start racing that thing, it will be the most unreliable race car until taht motor gets built, tuned, etc
as for a LS1 running a 10.8. thats not as fast as that car is going to go. that thing is just getting started.
Take an LS1
add a aggressive cam
headwork
intake
exhuast
Strip it
Put it on a boot
250 shot or more
and it will run low 10's
As for your gsx, thats bullshit on a 16g he ran a 11.1. Im not even gonna explain that one cuz tahts like saying a stock galant can run a 14 with 100 bucks in mods.
Your gonna need a 50 trim to get those numbers, even with that i would doubt it.
7000 to break 13's
and the 2.4 is overhyped for DSM's. Chances are if you want a 4g64 block and your sticking it in your dsm, you have the money to built the shit out of it.
What did AMS run with a 2.0 motor?
9.77
THANK YOU
unless you wanna brag and say, hey i got a 2.4 what now.
It would be abotu 50 times smarter to swap a 4g63t in a galant. Cheaper, youll go faster and wotn have to worry about reliability issues. That is the way to go for a movin car. Turbocharge the 4g64 and build it if u want a race car.
Im not nockin people who turbo the 64 but its seriosuly more than just strapping parts on and adding an afc. You will be faster no doubt, but the SOHC is gonna kill you in ways, youll want to upgrade to DOHC, then eventually built the motor so you can run more boost. FMIC, exhuast, etc.
Use the EVO3 manifold...bolt up perfect, stronger, better flow
99' Galant ES
4G64/63T
AEM EMS
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiperSilver)</div><div class='quotemain'>LOW 11S ON A 16G. WOW wake up seriously, ill get into that a little later
On a sidenote,
Turbo the 4g64-2000 ABOUT
Get a built trans for all you auto guys-3000 about
why the hell would i want an automatic? Â*buy a GS-T 2g transmission and it'll hold a lot better and cost about 300-500 dollars...not 3000 like you are claiming.
Okay you got a turbo 4g64 that is now running numbers close to a stock gs-t. Â*
No, you willl be faster. Â*Bigger displacement will give you faser numbers with the same boost levels
YOU WILL need to do a shitload of tuning to get that turbo motor running well. Hence a standalone, diff fuel maps, timing adjustments. We have a built GSR , turbo, etc. It runs like shit, know why? cuz you will need a standalone to get taht thing running right. AFC will help but until you get a standalone or a VPC or something you gonna be stuck at 200.
Not to mention when you turbocharge the 4g64 , 2000 is for stock parts. if you want to run 250 whp your gonna need some other shit. Â*7000 is to get it running right. Sure we can turbo a 4g64 and do it for 3000. But when you start racing that thing, it will be the most unreliable race car until taht motor gets built, tuned, etc
Actually I emailed Curt Shambeau about it. Â*He said his car is completely reliable and he is running a much larger turbo, so thus i raise the BS flag. Â*He has NO advanced engine management except for that really nice J&S knock sensor. Â*So once again, I raise the BS flag. Â*Curt's spyder has been running full boost for 1.5 years Â*w/o any problems. Â*Just to let you know. Â*
Also, there are little tools called DSMlink and pocketlogger/datalogger and such that can be bought for 600 bux and can defintily take care of business when it comes to engine management. Â*Or if you are going to insist on wasting money, go buy a Haltec. Â*Again, you probably will tell me i'm full of shit here but once you go hybrid 2g, you can use dsmlink and have no problems whatsoever if you are super nuts about it "running right" but again, Curt said his runs fine as a daily driver. Â*If you really got that into it you could run a hacked MAS anyway. Â*BTW, if the 4g64 isn't such a good block to run, why does magnus now offer them as his stage three bottom end? Â*I raise the BS flag.
You have a built GSR and you still can't get that right? Â*That should tell you somethign right there. Â*If you can't get a honda right, why are you even trying a dsm? Â*
as for a LS1 running a 10.8. thats not as fast as that car is going to go. that thing is just getting started. Â*
Take an LS1
add a aggressive cam
headwork
intake
exhuast
Strip it
Put it on a boot
250 shot or more Â*
and it will run low 10's
I have no clue what was in the Trans-am, i just know it was the second the last race of the day, and if a GSX with minimal modding kept up until then and still drove home that night in his car, not towing his car like all the others were...then that impressed me.
As for your gsx, thats bullshit on a 16g he ran a 11.1. Â*Im not even gonna explain that one cuz tahts like saying a stock galant can run a 14 with 100 bucks in mods.
Believe what you want, but it defintly happened. Â*No Problem Raceway, Donaldsonville, LA. Â*There were several guys I know that day at the track. Â*All of them will tell you the same thing. Â*The GSX was like the second qualifier that day. Â*I dont' really feel as though I have something to prove here.
Your gonna need a 50 trim to get those numbers, even with that i would doubt it.</div>
call up AMS, tell them a gsx ran a 11.1 on a 16g and minmal modding. Hear them hang up. its truly impossible. Unless your spraying a 100-150 shot i highly doubt it.
good points hipersilver. the fact is is that if you have a galant an 8g only, i am not speaking for 7g owners as i have no experience as a 7g owner, its gonna take money to make your car quick, substantially more money than it will take to make say a civic fast or an accord or something of that type. but even those cars arent meant to be fast. they are economy cars meant for comfortable point a to point b transportation. what you will be doing if you mod these cars if you want to admit it or not, is fixing up a car to be what its not. and also to spend thousands of dollars on a car to make it perform up to a stock a4's performance specs is downright sad/ridiculous. cause it wuold take a galant 4g64 owner alot of cash to outrun or outhandle me in my car and i paid only 13g's for a car that has thus far proven reliable. it just comes down to facing the facts and taking whats available to you. not trying to make something out of nothing.
fastest dsm's:
Rank 1/4 ET 1/4 MPH 1/8 ET 1/8 MPH 60' Car Turbo N2O Name Shop
86 11.825 115.39 7.547 92.26 1.728 92 TSi RST small 16g NO Curtis Miska
sorry, came out of a list: http://www.dsmtimes.org/awd.htm
here's fastest fwd
15 11.807 115.39 7.528 90.64 1.608 92 Lasar small 16g NO Richie Ferdinandi BM Tranny, GTRmotorsports.net
(fastest on 16g out of those lists)
thats high 11's
he was talking about an 11.1
.7 is alot in the quarter mile when your already that low into the digits.
Im sure its possible and been done, but an 11.1. We cant even run that with a 50 trim, external, exhuast, JUN cams, etc.
Anyway, the point is...yes they do exist. If you do a 16g correctly, you can break into the 11's no problem. The problem usually is that people don't tune a 16g setup properly. I've seen so many 16g setups run 14's and 12's that it's not even funny. I've seen stock T25 setups beat some 16g's. It is all a matter of tuning.
The guy's car wasn't a 16g I was wrong. I'll admit it. He wasn't near his car and we were guessing that night. I do not know what kind of turbo it was at that time...I know that now he has a Garrett GT30 hybrid ball bearing. I found his car online.
You spoke of VP's turbos. He is the number one ranked car there. 1_Vicious_GSX is his nick. He has a STOCK bottom end GSX 99 7bolt motor.
http://www.victoryperformance.com/rides/ds...ail.cfm?ride=36
The times he has posted are old. The track times were the 11.1's that i mentioned. Not to mention that the guys were dumb for telling me it was only a 16g that night. Probably should have just walked over for myself. This guy laid out one of the new SC benz's that night. It was a site to see. Bet that guy went home crying over spending that much money on a sc benz.
He never said what kind of pistons he has, but other than that, the only mentioned internal work is that he's got HKS 272 cams as of now. He just swapped out his 262's. He is making over 400 at the wheels with his mods so far. On a stock 7bolt 4g63 bottom end that is supposedly weak.
Big 1g rods have shown to hold 400 hp consistently and smaller 2g rods (galant 4g64 rods also) hold to 300. The cams are decent on a 4g63 and they can easily be bumped to the HKS for not too much money. Again though, the point is, a 4g series motor is not crap, or hard to get up to speed.
A DOHC swap takes balls, that is all. Be willing to put your motor on the line. If you do it, you get a beast. 8g 4g64 woudl be even easier. The motor is already distributorless. 7g 4g64's are distributored motors. It is just that much easier when it comes time to put in the eclipse head.
Doing the swap only leads to benefits....you can use DSMlink and all the dsm specific head parts...more flow...bigger potential...it all makes more sense in the end.
good points hipersilver. the fact is is that if you have a galant an 8g only, i am not speaking for 7g owners as i have no experience as a 7g owner, its gonna take money to make your car quick, substantially more money than it will take to make say a civic fast or an accord or something of that type. but even those cars arent meant to be fast. they are economy cars meant for comfortable point a to point b transportation. what you will be doing if you mod these cars if you want to admit it or not, is fixing up a car to be what its not. and also to spend thousands of dollars on a car to make it perform up to a stock a4's performance specs is downright sad/ridiculous. cause it wuold take a galant 4g64 owner alot of cash to outrun or outhandle me in my car and i paid only 13g's for a car that has thus far proven reliable. it just comes down to facing the facts and taking whats available to you. not trying to make something out of nothing.
Give my neighbor a year, and about a few thousand dollars, and he'll beat you without much problems...my cousin's new VW GTI could probably beat you.
plans
4g64/4g63 hybrid
eagle rods/je pistons
garrett GT30 or GT40 turbo
2g GST tranny
SAFC
i'm guessing around 650's or 750's for injectors
walboro 255
trying to convince him to get dsmlink or at least a pocketlogger
welded/knifed crank
ported and polished head
bronze valves
3way valve job
balance shafts removed
honed and hot tanked
All complements of a guy who defintily knwos what he is doing. Travis down at www.forcedinductionracing.com Travis has a 9 second sentra to his list of accomplisments as well as several ongoing SR motor swaps and a times he's even done DSM work. So I'm pretty much going to call you out on that offer sometime in the future. Either myself or my neighbor would love to see that race go down.
ummm call me out on what offer. i dont recall making an offer but maybe i did. and also a few thousand dollars=alot of cash to me. im sure you can make a galant fast if you spend the money, however, there are other cars that take less money and are easier to make fast. thats all i am saying. what i am saying is basically that the galant, no matter how much you want it to be is not a good platform to build a drag or race car with. its just not. neither is my car, but you dont see saying that it is either. there is a supercharger system for the 2.8v6 for audi that consistently runs in the mid to hi thirteens. but nevertheless, its not gonna make it a drag car champion. my car is too heavy for that to happen. thats fast streetable power to me. i dont care about driving or having a race car. i want a comfortable car taht is quick, handles well and is fun to drive. and for me, thats what i have. oh and as far as a gti beating me if its a vr6 im sure it can. basically same motor specs as mine, except the vr6 is packaged a little more narrowly (is this a word?) than the 2.8v6 in mine, and the car weighs like 400 less pounds. my only comments were that to make a 4g64 8g galant run fifteens it takes alot of money. bottom line, i dont care about 9 sec sentras or any of that sh*t. im not here to argue about dsm's cause i dont drive one and i dont know as much as you about them im sure, so there ya go.
2 of them exist!!!!, thats enough to prove a point its possible, but 2 out of how many dsm's are out there? And they both run high 11's, an 11.1 is a different story, thats like almost breaking 10's. GT30 is a whole different turbo. Thats bigger than a t3/t3, ball bearing to reduce spool up time.
HKS doesnt make 262's, 264's but i know what u mean.
As for those hp numbers. thats decent. We made 400 whp on fucked up rings, burning oil like a mofo. Stock bottom end. untouched head, except for 272's across. 50 trim, etc
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