unless u have a hookup a shyt tonOriginally Posted by leadfoot
OK, now I'm jealous. Us 6g72 guys never got this type of information on buildup. What an incredible pool of experience you guys have to draw on now. Kim obviously has the ability to take the 4g64 to a whole new level. Kevin, just promise me a ride when you get to 300HP
Chip
2000 Basalt Black Metallic GTZ
(Paint Code: Porsche LC9Z)
Genuine experience carries a lot more credibility than the ability to answer a question.
OK, now I'm jealous. Us 6g72 guys never got this type of information on buildup. What an incredible pool of experience you guys have to draw on now. Kim obviously has the ability to take the 4g64 to a whole new level. Kevin, just promise me a ride when you get to 300HP
im glad u have wishfull thinkin for my car too...hahaha...maybe with to people wishin 4 a ride in a 300hp g...it'll happen.....*cough mante cough*
haha but seriously i think ima try to build it up to that much but then im worried about the tranny and i dont have the money 4 that...and wont any time soon :evil:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fishboy55)</div><div class='quotemain'>OK, now I'm jealous. Us 6g72 guys never got this type of information on buildup. What an incredible pool of experience you guys have to draw on now. Kim obviously has the ability to take the 4g64 to a whole new level. Â*Kevin, just promise me a ride when you get to 300HP Â*
Really ?? Well as fate would have it, we're lookin for a local V-6 guy as well to work thru a turbo set up for the Galants / Eclipses with the factory 3.0 engine.
My main partner in modding crime, Justin Harris aka "Crusty" :>P just bought himself a new toy, a 91 pearl white Stealth R/T NA AT car & is workin to locate a "front clip" + RWD set up from a 3000GT to convert the Stealth to an AWD 5 spd. twin turbo DOHC 3.5L with a fully built bottom end assy & twin 16G's.
What compression ratio does your motor have ?? Do you know what version Mitsu rods it uses ? We "guess" your engine likely uses 2G rods & turbo 8.5 : 1 cr pistons, but it's only a guess, since we've yet to have had an opportunity to dissect a piston like we did for the 1G NA & turbo 2.0, 2G turbo 2.0, 7-bolt 4g64 2.4 & g4cs's 2.4 so we have an understanding of their composition & deck thickness.
If your motor used the same style pistons as a 4g64, you'd be limited (with a stock bottom end) to the same 10 psi we recommend for the 4g64s.
We agree that there's been little done with the V-6 motors of any real substance & would like a better understanding of their capabilities
Our focus has been on strictly 4 cyl Mitsus, but we are looking at including the V-6 stuff too:>)
Well hopefully by spring you will eb able to see what my new motor can do. 4g64 block 8:1 JE pistons, pauter rods, 2.0 litre (86mm i think) crank, EVO VIII DOHC head swap, T3/4 ball bearing turbo @27lbs, then the other lil shit, valves, springs, stage 2 turbo cams, yada yada yada. I should have my 5 speed swap done (praying) before the new year. I wanna get the stock motor working with the tranny nice before i try hooking the tranny up to a beast. My local DSM guy tells me that out of the mods listed and some tuning im gonna be running high 10's - low 11's
and pushing around 530 whp. Now to see if we can get these wheels to stay on the ground.....hmmmm..... thats another issue. by the way all of the motor parts listed, plus some labor from my mechanic (i cant do it all myself, lack of facilities and tools) im looking at $5,500 for everything.
8) OK, here's a run down on my own personal project goin in my rolling chassis 92 AWD Talon ->>
g4cs shaved (inside & out) / decked block (6-bolt 2.4 Hyundai), forged / ceramic coated 10:1 cr Wisecos, lightened g4cs forged steel crank (shaved 12 lbs. off it!), custom crank scraper, Eagle 1G style big rods, Toga high volume oil pump, no balance shalves, shaved front balance shaft drive sprocket/ crank pulley spacer (from 1-1/2 lbs. to a mere few ounces), removed 20 excess lbs from engine accessory brackets / motor mount brackets, Prothane motor mounts, Jun (11 lb) chromolly flywheel, ACT 2600 clutch / PP, +1mm oversize undercut stemmed valves, (personally) ported / decked 2G 2.0 DOHC head, ARP head studs, (waiting on) Dale Forresters 2G style intake manifold to be made or I may just build one of our own design:>), Crower cams / springs / retainers, SFP tubular (ceramic coated inside & out) turbo header, ceramic coated (inside & out) full T4 / T4 turbo, custom ceramic coated (inside & out) 3-1/2" down pipe, 3-1/2" exhaust, Turbonetics Racegate external WG, Tial BOV, GM 3-1/2" MAF & Ramchargers MAF Translator, S-AFC, -8 AN fuel system w/ -6 AN return line, 255HP Walbro pump, adjustable FPR, FMIC, 2-1/2" custom IC pipe set, custom front air dam ducted CAI, Setrab oil cooler w/ -12 AN SS hoses, custom remote oil filter housing w/ -12 AN SS lines, engine / turbo electric pre-luber oiling system, -20 AN Kevlar radiator hoses, custom CV Industries thermostat housing w/ 160 degree thermostat, custom aluminum radiator (hasta be to get the -20 AN fittings on it!) and a bunch more tricks that are all over the engine bay
Pretty much nothing will go untouched by my loving hands :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Total costs so far, just over $6800
Then again, I've bartered, bought some used parts & bought up parts from other peoples abandoned projects. Full boat on all this + all my custom fabrication work would likley run at least $15,000 - 20, 000.
I figure this will net me (once I get the damned thing finished, hopefully in time for next summers DSM Shoot Out in Norwalk, Ohio :>) 500+ HP that will run like an NA 2.4 hot rod off boost with the 10:1s & spool the turbo to full boost (only about 20 psi w/the 10:1s) by no later than 3500-4000 rpm & put me in a very small group of cars here in DFW capable of the type performance it will be have, BUT ..... w/ AWD too
I "should" be able to boost even modded Vipers in the weeds with this toy !!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rollintoybox)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fishboy55)</div><div class='quotemain'>OK, now I'm jealous. Us 6g72 guys never got this type of information on buildup. What an incredible pool of experience you guys have to draw on now. Kim obviously has the ability to take the 4g64 to a whole new level. Â*Kevin, just promise me a ride when you get to 300HP Â*
Really ?? Well as fate would have it, we're lookin for a local V-6 guy as well to work thru a turbo set up for the Galants / Eclipses with the factory 3.0 engine.
My main partner in modding crime, Justin Harris aka "Crusty" :>P just bought himself a new toy, a 91 pearl white Stealth R/T NA AT car & is workin to locate a "front clip" + RWD set up from a 3000GT to convert the Stealth to an AWD 5 spd. twin turbo DOHC 3.5L with a fully built bottom end assy & twin 16G's.
What compression ratio does your motor have ?? Do you know what version Mitsu rods it uses ? We "guess" your engine likely uses 2G rods & turbo 8.5 : 1 cr pistons, but it's only a guess, since we've yet to have had an opportunity to dissect a piston like we did for the 1G NA & turbo 2.0, 2G turbo 2.0, 7-bolt 4g64 2.4 & g4cs's 2.4 so we have an understanding of their composition & deck thickness.
If your motor used the same style pistons as a 4g64, you'd be limited (with a stock bottom end) to the same 10 psi we recommend for the 4g64s.
We agree that there's been little done with the V-6 motors of any real substance & would like a better understanding of their capabilities
Our focus has been on strictly 4 cyl Mitsus, but we are looking at including the V-6 stuff too:>)
Well I can tell you my friend TwistedGTZ in Chicago has personally ripped his 6G72 motor down to the ground and has just finished rebuilding it. You need to talk to him about the specific specs. Hmmm... Kim, have you got a beater I can drive back to Maryland and use while you have my car down in Texas???
Chip
2000 Basalt Black Metallic GTZ
(Paint Code: Porsche LC9Z)
Genuine experience carries a lot more credibility than the ability to answer a question.
8) Well athough I could loan ya my beater, then I'd be out of a ride :>(
I'm currently herding an Eclaser (Eclipse w/ some Laser parts on it:>) with a, now get this ->> 1.8 SOHC motor in it !! I dynoed it for grins last spring at a dyno session the DFWDSM club had out at Forced Performance with a whopping 68HP, TO THE GROUND BABY !!!
The car is affectionatley known as "Squeeky" since everything on it rattles or squeeksI treat it like a bitch car & just drive it, put gas in it & keep the oil changed. That's all the attention it ever sees & more than it deserves ! My favorite method of mistreatment for this puny beastie is to rev it up til it's bouncin off the rev limiter & just drop the clutch. It kinds sounds like this : rrrrRRRRRRR - bop - bop - bop - Squeeeeeeek. Hence another reason I call it Squeeky :>)
This will be my ride til I get the 92 AWD Talon back on the street again with the new g4cs hybrid motor & I may just put the damned thing together 1st as an NA, just so I have something better to drive while I finish out the rest of the exotic turbo set up for it. This would really piss off a lot of local DSMers to have it as an AWD NA car, so that idea's kind of a bonus anyway
I'm also tempted to install it as an NA to better explore some of the capabilities of this 2.4 package without it being boosted. This way I feel I could better find the way the engine package itself works and what it likes / dislikes so I can focus my attentions more specifically on exactly where the engine needs the most help once it's boosted.
Every engine likes things a bit differently & getting the absolute most performance out of one is always dependent upon giving it what it "wants" more than what we might feel it should "have"
One thing I've always felt is that boost covers up a lot of deficiencies a motor may have that in an NA trim can be better understood and accomodations be made to get more performance from, once boost enters the picture.
Most DSMers feel the answer to getting more performance from a motor is just to dial up some extra boost, while my feeling is to better maximize the engines individual systems to their utmost best efficiency & THEN turn up the wick This will always gain more HP in the long run & afterall, there's only so much boost you can run anyway
But, I digress .... we really need someone local w/ a 2.4 and a 3.0 so we can sort out the turbo packages we know we can create for the 2000 + G Ride & Eclipse guys. This would allow us to best sort everything out with the least down time for this and all future boosted set ups & help us offer a better fit and finish on the completed set up, which is a very important aspect of anything we would put our names to.
We're every bit as concerned in the proper fit, routing and finished visual appeal of our completed projects as we are in what it is capable of in terms of HP production. Bad ass hot rods are cool, but it's even better when ya whoop up on someone & then can pop the hood & show that it's also a beautiful package too
i say again..orders to tx..hahaha
ok i have some concerns and questions
theres been a lot of talk about the evo VIII head swap lately
has anyone confirmed that it can be done, correctly? or is this still a theory, does anyone have the hybrid running?
i know that its a strong theory , but has it been done yet?
next question, you said about putting the 1.6L 4g64 crank in a 4g64, can you put the old style cranks in the new motors? can you just turn them around? cuz the crank points opposite directions, i didnt know you could just flip it around
next concern...BNM you sound like you are building a freakin beast, but if you are goin so huge, why stick with the gm maf, why not step up to the vpc? its a lot less trouble, and better in the end
next concern, what IC core are you planning on using for the 4g64 turbo kit
next concern, what ecu will you be using, is it an evo ecu?
next question, will you sell all these parts individually? say i just wanted to get the pistons and rods?
next question, does arp make headstuds that work on our year 4g64? are they the same as dsm headstuds? or would you get them custom made?
ill think of more later, its too early lol
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UncleMeat)</div><div class='quotemain'>ok i have some concerns and questions
theres been a lot of talk about the evo VIII head swap lately
has anyone confirmed that it can be done, correctly? or is this still a theory, does anyone have the hybrid running?
8) Â* KS:
It's not theory at all, though I haven't done it or even seen the 2 head assys side by side, knowing the way Mitsu manufactures things, it will bolt on Â*& work :>)
next question, you said about putting the 1.6L 4g61 crank in a 4g64, can you put the old style cranks in the new motors? can you just turn them around? cuz the crank points opposite directions, i didnt know you could just flip it around
8) Â*KS: To use a 4g61 crank you'd also hafta be using a g4cs or a very rare 4g64 6-bolt block to make it work out, since the 7-bolt Â*4g64 uses a different crank set up with the one piece bottom end girdles instead of the individual (huge BTW) main caps the g4cs uses. Â*The direction of the crank has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. Â*The cranks both spin the same direction, your newer 4g64s are just turned 180 degrees around from the earlier motors :>) Â*My guess / theory is that an older 4g64 7-bolt crank would likely still drop right into your newer version 180 degree 4g64 block :>)
Â*
next concern...BNM you sound like you are building a freakin beast, but if you are goin so huge, why stick with the gm maf, why not step up to the vpc? its a lot less trouble, and better in the end
Â*8) KS: A VPC ?? Â*1st problem is that they're no longer sold / made. Â*The second issue with them is I never knew anyone who ever got them workin like they were supposed to work in the 1st place. Â*The bottom line is actually very simplistic in all this though. Â*I bought a 3-1/2" GM MAF for $28 Â*& Â*a MAF Translator for another $200 Â*& Â*then have a spare S-AFC layin around. Â*No way in hell I could assemble the same capability set up with a VPC (that might or might not work) for the same $$ & Â*it certainly wouldn't give me thesame Â*dependably tunability I already know this set up will give me, so why go any other way ?
next concern, what IC core are you planning on using for the 4g64 turbo kit
Â*8) KS: Â*Dunno yet, since I have no clue what size I could even stuff into the front end of a G-Ride / Eclipse :>) Rest assured, it will be as large as is practical Â*& Â*the best flowing design we can get our hands on for the size we use:>)
next concern, what ecu will you be using, is it an evo ecu?
8) Â* KS:
I ain't tellin everything, but no, it won't be an EVO ECU. At $1500 from Mitsu, it would be waaaaay too expensive to be practical. Â*If an owner were wanting a turbo kit / install done here (and cared to pony up that much $$ for an ECU :>), we could sort that out, but that's not the ECU we intend on using.
next question, will you sell all these parts individually? say i just wanted to get the pistons and rods?
Â*8) Â*KS:
YEP !!! Â*We are currently Wiseco distributors Â*& Â*the new 2.4 pistons they have listed to be used with the earlier 1G big rods were actually the fruits of our partnering with them to have these made :>) Â*BTW, we're also workin on a new secret design with Wiseco that will be of benefit to all interference fit Mitsu owners lookin for extra durability / performance / and Â*a BNM feature not currently available anywhere from any piston manufacturer:>)
next question, does arp make headstuds that work on our year 4g64? are they the same as dsm headstuds? or would you get them custom made?
Â*8) Â*KS: Â*
YEP Â*
ill think of more later, its too early lol</div>
KS:
No problem
sounds like everything is sorted out
my vpc works great on my gvr4, the guy who had it before me on his talon worked fine too, i dunno, i havent seen any problems with them
im interested in this old style vs new style crank issue tho, i think ill have some more questions and stuff to talk about with you, but ill start contacting you through email
ive got some parts lying around here that could be useful if you need pics, or measurements
ill be contacting u
8)Glad to hear you 2 guys were sucessful in running your VPC. All I ever heard from people usin 'em was bitchin & whining & they seemed to always be chasin their tails with tryin to get 'em tuned in, so .....
Anone is certainly welcome to email me privately at [email protected] about any matter they'd like clarification on.
Although I'm not always online, I do check my mail regularly when I can get at it & do my best to respond as quickly as possible
Kim?
are you stalking me?
jeeze....=0]
anyways.. welcome To the galant world when did you guys start Working on the backward-spinning 4g64's????
Ps... in Case we haven't covered it yet...
it's Mr. Kim Steele
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fishboy55)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Well I can tell you my friend TwistedGTZ in Chicago has personally ripped his 6G72 motor down to the ground and has just finished rebuilding it. You need to talk to him about the specific specs. Hmmm... Kim, have you got a beater I can drive back to Maryland and use while you have my car down in Texas???
8) Hey Chip, does your buddy in Chi-town by chance have a stock piston / rod layin around from his rebuild ? I'd love to get a cuppla digipics of one, or maybe even a real hands on look at one, if that's a possibility
I've seen several different parameters change significantly from one Mitsu set up to another, and the two aspects of their pistons that is most relevent to a boosted motor is the piston deck support and the actual dome thickness.
We've seen the early 1G NA 9:1cr pistons capable of at least 18 psi worth of boost, while with the (very) thin domes in the 4g64s pistons, our feeling is about 10psi is the safe limit on these. I'd like to know the way the V-6 pistons are made to explore the boost limit they can handle too
BTW, for all the 4g64 cats that doubt this statement, one of the guys over on the 4g64 Yahoo list wasted his turboed 4g64 in his 2G Eclipse Spyder when his nephew (unbeknownst to him) turned up his electronic boost controller to 21psi after showin off his cool electronic toys to the boy & then leavin him in the car for a cuppla minutes alone :>( 2 days later he hit full boost (the new 21psi the boy had dialed in for him) and cracked a piston.
Though we fixed him up with a new set of Wisecos that even his boost happy younger buddy couldn't waste with a few extra psi anymore, it was a helluva way to gain a piston customer :shock:
While the stock Mitsu 2G 4g63t pistons piston deck thickness is somewhere around .200 & is nicely supported, my 10:1cr Wisecos are .351 thick at the decks :twisted: :twisted:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(g96nt)</div><div class='quotemain'>Kim?
are you stalking me?
jeeze....=0]
anyways.. welcome To the galant world when did you guys start Working on the backward-spinning 4g64's????
Ps... in Case we haven't covered it yet...
it's Mr. Kim Steele</div>
Stalkin ya ?? Nah man, if that were the case, this sneaky assed Texan would make sure you never knew it, til it was too late
Honestly we just were curious about what the new backwards rotational bunch were doin & after lookin at some of the boosted kits out there, decided to take a whack at it ourselves & incorporate the parameters we figure are of utmost importance for a boosted platform.
While knock control, proper IC sizing & the right fuel system dynamics are of utmost importance to a boosted Mitsu 4g64, we weren't seeing the combos we felt would work best for these motors offered & felt we could offer some better systems from our 2.4 experiences
BTW, ya'll can call me just about anything that comes to mind, just don't call me late for dinner ..... or Steele :>)
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