Galant306m's turbo build

**Ivory8g** · 12-03-2009, 07:26 PM

yeah i think its 9.0:1 for the stock 8g 64 engine. 9.7 would be pretty cool to mess with.

**Galant306m** · 12-03-2009, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by SPD_FRK

Snow Performance is a good kit, but personally in a build like this having some flexibility with the injection system is great. The AEM is a 3 nozzle kit too IIRC and that will help a lot if the time comes when you need it (which may be now).

The two stage kits work well...but I would opt for the AEM kit for the extra money and the features it has over the Snow system

Yea I seen that they have the 3 nozzles with the aem kit.

**hk20000** · 12-04-2009, 09:35 PM

it's not magic there's no way a 10.5:1 compression engine can take the same boost level as a 9.0:1 engine if the block is the same piece of casted metal and the piston is the same set of pistons.

There's the thing called mechanical limit. It's not a diesel engine and thus your block isn't made for a diesel-like 13:1+boost kind of compression. So if you go do this and rely on meth and the engine blows up because the meth system fails (so common to see them fail, too, within the DSM scene, coz DSMs are rarely drag only dedicated cars they are usually driven everywhere) people are going to laugh at you not with you.

In the end the engine block and head are just a 2 pieces of machined metal made to work with a certain amount of shock for a certain amount of times and to withstand a certain amount of heat.

10.5:1 compression engine + boost is like boosting a factory F20C Honda engine, which yes its been done and you can bring the power up to like 500bhp with meth but that's a whole different level of block and head engineering compared to a 4G63 from like 2 decades ago.

10.5:1 is a risk margin that's small, so small that many wouldn't take it, but it's your engine, so it's your call.

Like Many told you communism doesn't work, but you are free to believe in it, because it's America.

As for me if I have a 10.5:1 compression engine I wouldn't bring it over 10psi just to be safe because I want to drive it more than I want to fix it. In fact I don't have scientific proof that 10psi is a good number but that's just how other people with 10.5:1 compression engines like to do it with any degree of success. Like for instance the Miata people bolt on turbos are usually 5psi - 8psi, and FWD honda bolt on turbos are around there as well.

In the same 2L category a Vortex supercharger kit on a S2000 brings power up to 300 at the wheels or so using 2L displacement and 11:1 compression, so that would be where I think your bottle neck would come in. My friend has a 2.0L K20A with same compression and boost and he made 245 at the wheels with a custom ECU reflash to work with the boosting system.

That's without meth.

So you can go about that kind of power levels pretty safe and have a responsive engine (like 320-350 crank power or so) But going to like 20 psi like many DSM tuners have in mind would most certainly be fully relying on the meth to keep the intake cool and therefore is a risky choice for a daily driven car.

Again your engine your choice. I have no idea how much power are you planning to make out of it, the theory is sound, but the risk is high.

I prefer the old school way of dropping that compression because then when I'm not in the mood of racing it, I can dump in 87octane gas and turn off the boost with the ECU rofl. But that's the cheapass me.

**seth98esT** · 12-04-2009, 11:19 PM

You cant compare honda motors to mitsu motors, they are both 4 cylinders, thats about it.

galantuner10: You act like nobody has ever turboed a 4g64 outside of TGC. The guys in the DSM scene have been doing it years before we started. Just because you havent seen it, doesnt mean someone else in a non-galant hasnt done it.

Of course a high compression motor wont be able to run the same high boost as a low compression motor. But # for # in boost, the high compression motor will make more power. Mitch is not looking to make 600whp, his setup should hold 10-15psi and I could forsee 300-400whp at that boost depending on the turbo.

Reliability is in the tune and maintenance. Mitch already said this will not be his daily, so reliability isnt a huge deal.

If you guys dont have something helpful to say, go on some other forum and flap your yappers.

**DOHCstunr** · 12-04-2009, 11:42 PM

everyone acts like if you go with meth injection... you aren't also running a big front mount intercooler.

its pretty simple. you run a meth setup with a low fluid sender in it. the low fluid sender signal deactivates the meth injection, and the same it sends a signal to your boost controller to reduce boost to your desired and safe level.

its not rocket science.

**Galanttuner10** · 12-04-2009, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by seth98esT

You cant compare honda motors to mitsu motors, they are both 4 cylinders, thats about it.

galantuner10: You act like nobody has ever turboed a 4g64 outside of TGC. The guys in the DSM scene have been doing it years before we started. Just because you havent seen it, doesnt mean someone else in a non-galant hasnt done it.

Of course a high compression motor wont be able to run the same high boost as a low compression motor. But # for # in boost, the high compression motor will make more power. Mitch is not looking to make 600whp, his setup should hold 10-15psi and I could forsee 300-400whp at that boost depending on the turbo.

Reliability is in the tune and maintenance. Mitch already said this will not be his daily, so reliability isnt a huge deal.

If you guys dont have something helpful to say, go on some other forum and flap your yappers.

work on DSMs with my buddy all day long but what do i know raised around cars means nothing nowadays

i said i hope it works for him and the help i was offering is to go lower compression so he doesnt blow anything up. i dont care if going low compression is old school, it works and theres a reason most turbo motors are lower compression besides the VW which i believe is 10.0:1 and those things blow all the time with stock turbos on stock boost. just trying to save you the headache of building another motor or parting it out cuz it blows up. it would be a shame to see everything gone in the blink of an eye.

**Galanttuner10** · 12-05-2009, 12:01 AM

my main question is.. why get a larger expensive turbo to run low boost?

**Galant306m** · 12-05-2009, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by seth98esT

You cant compare honda motors to mitsu motors, they are both 4 cylinders, thats about it.

galantuner10: You act like nobody has ever turboed a 4g64 outside of TGC. The guys in the DSM scene have been doing it years before we started. Just because you havent seen it, doesnt mean someone else in a non-galant hasnt done it.

Of course a high compression motor wont be able to run the same high boost as a low compression motor. But # for # in boost, the high compression motor will make more power. Mitch is not looking to make 600whp, his setup should hold 10-15psi and I could forsee 300-400whp at that boost depending on the turbo.

Reliability is in the tune and maintenance. Mitch already said this will not be his daily, so reliability isnt a huge deal.

If you guys dont have something helpful to say, go on some other forum and flap your yappers.

exactly im looking to make just over 400 whp now the PTE sc60 from what i have read is a very very efficient turbo, and that's what im planing on going with.

Originally Posted by DOHCstunr

everyone acts like if you go with meth injection... you aren't also running a big front mount intercooler.

its pretty simple. you run a meth setup with a low fluid sender in it. the low fluid sender signal deactivates the meth injection, and the same it sends a signal to your boost controller to reduce boost to your desired and safe level.

its not rocket science.

Finally someone besides SPD_FRK and Letsrunem that understands meth injection, its a simple setup that will lower the fuck out of my IAT"s.

Originally Posted by Galanttuner10

my main question is.. why get a larger expensive turbo to run low boost?

Im going to call you stupid just for this comment, you should go to the supra guys and tell them to go to a 14b and run 60psi instead of running a t70 at 25 psi.

Ok im going to explain something to the person who works on DSM's everyday here, Smaller turbo that run higher boost= More Stressful on a Motor that is Running a BIGGER turbo on lower boost. Turbo's are NOT ALL ABOUT PSI HERE PEOPLE that is how people determine how much its out putting its a easier then measuring CFM, the amount of air that the turbo is moving is called CFM, the amount that its putting into the engine is PSI (compressed into pounds per square inch). You could get a air flow meter to measure CFM but no on would know what the hell you are talking about. SO a bigger turbo is better because its causing less strain on the engine, because you are running lower psi, lower EGT's and its not spinning as fast as a small turbo CRANKED OUT TO 20 or so psi, let not forget to mention im going to be FLOWING WAY MORE AIR. If small turbo's where so great people would be running tinny turbo's and making more HP then a larger turbo because they are putting out "MORE PSI"

DO YOU GET IT YET

simplified version

Small turbo can run more PSI but moves less air and gets hotter

Big turbo can run lower PSI but is moving more air then small turbo while staying cooler.

**SPD_FRK** · 12-05-2009, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by hk20000

There's the thing called mechanical limit. It's not a diesel engine and thus your block isn't made for a diesel-like 13:1+boost kind of compression.
10.5:1 compression engine + boost is like boosting a factory F20C

A diesel engine block is no different than a gasoline engine block. Some engines use an aluminum block (V8s mostly), otherwise they are all cast. Diesels run high compression yea, and they also will run 50+ psi of boost no issue...odd how that works, oh yea...its D I E S E L fuel. Octane of diesel is extremely lower than gasoline, ever tried running gas through a diesel and see what happens besides not running very good, or long?

As much as I hate myself to even bring the name up, I feel it's reasonable right now whether anybody else agrees or not. WarmAndSCSI went through the same downplay and doubts on some big parts of his builds. He may have trashed some parts/engines, but he learned from each step of the way and even provided some huge advancements that NOBODY has even come close to touching, not even on Club3g.

Galant306m is doing something different in the realms of turbo here. No, this isn't something entirely new, DSMs have done it as well as other platforms. The only reason I say something new is because people are still "noobs" for the most part about turbos here that its all about being "boost happy" and pushing for 15+psi to make power. In order to eat that 15+psi of boost you are running a 9:1 or lower compression. The 9:1 compression is basically OEM CR for a lot of vehicles, no loss/gain when you aren't seeing boost. The only power added is when the turbo spools and makes boost...outside of boost its just "plain jane" power really.

Bumping the CR up to 9:5-10:1 is starting to get into a little N/a pep over the OEM power. Throttle response is going to be a little more crisp than 9:1 CR (obviously), put a turbo on like he is looking at and say it will spool at 3600-3800rpm. You are still making good power from the higher CR, add about 8-10psi of boost in the mid to high end RPM range (where might I add most N/a setups will fall off w/o cams), and you have a very strong and broad powerband from top to bottom.

If you have forged rods and pistons running up to 10:1 CR, and no more than 10psi (give or take for how well tuning is), and the other obvious components...let the dyno charts speak the results for those who haven't figured it out.

**mko** · 12-05-2009, 05:07 AM

Amin to all that

**Shadow19** · 12-05-2009, 11:43 AM

Its all speculation until the mother fucker runs! Hurry the fuck up mitch! Do da damn thing son!

**hk20000** · 12-05-2009, 01:44 PM

yeah it's quite pointless to compare actually, coz you got all those fancy pistons and rods and stuff.

Unlike those mazda and honda boys boosting factory engines.

Also I'm not going to go into lengths of how the diesel engines' blocks (including rods and pistons and cranks) are just so fucking much stronger than one engineered for gasoline.

but you are agreeing with me that this setup is around 300ish HP yes? Then we have an agreement there.

I'm not too sure about 10.5+boost reaching 400 though, it needs all components running right and 9 planets aligned in some way. But get this fucker running already hahaha.

This just in: re-tuned the K20A boost and now it makes 265 at the wheels (320 at the crank ish?) and the S/C supplier says they have seen adding IHE to that kit increasing the power to 310 at wheels at 12psi before. Honda engines come with forged everything these days anyway.

so it will be a cool match with ur 4G63 build, all happening at the same time.

**seth98esT** · 12-05-2009, 02:49 PM

Idk what your friend is doing. First of all, superchargers are not effecient enough for a small sub 2.4L 4cyl. Superchargers are meant for large displacement v6 or v8 motors.

Ive seen plenty of 400whp+ stock block turbo k20a dyno vids. Obviously, the supercharger is the bottleneck, not the block.

Theres even this extreme, k20a2 stock rods, pistons, headstuds ... 615whp
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=68880

Its all in the setup and tuning. Sure that 615whp motor may not last as long as your friends 265whp k20a, but the stock components holding together at those power levels is something to say about a properly tuned setup.

**SPD_FRK** · 12-05-2009, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by hk20000

yeah it's quite pointless to compare actually, coz you got all those fancy pistons and rods and stuff.

Unlike those mazda and honda boys boosting factory engines.

Also I'm not going to go into lengths of how the diesel engines' blocks (including rods and pistons and cranks) are just so fucking much stronger than one engineered for gasoline.

but you are agreeing with me that this setup is around 300ish HP yes? Then we have an agreement there.

I'm not too sure about 10.5+boost reaching 400 though, it needs all components running right and 9 planets aligned in some way. But get this fucker running already hahaha.

Are you just pulling random search information from google as you type it in or what dude? Boosting stock internals will hold depending on whether the rods are OEM cast or forged rods. Hell, even he 2.0L and 2.4L Neon guys will run on stock compression (which iirc is high 9s:1) and internals with boost up to 10-12psi with no issues. Throw in some forged rods and they crank boost way up, if the rods and pistons are forged material instead of the cheesy cast crap metals the components will hold more power whether it's N/a or boosted. Boosting OEM internals it not something new and is still done on a number of vehicles, if the OEM stuff is forged then yea, you can push more boost.

Diesel stuff...don't even go there with me because I work for one of the top companies in the industry and know a great deal about them. You are right, the block and rods are much stronger...for obvious reasons. No way they would ever swap out for forged rods/pistons though right? Wrong.

300hp to the wheels is a possibility, but this all really depends on the tuning and what other components (cams, valves, and head work) is tossed into the engine. There is one 420a engine in a DSM (2.0L same as what is used the Dodge Neon) that is running 10.5:1 CR and 28psi of boost making over 550WHP, though he is running a lot of fuel (1000cc/min injectors).

The potential is there, and like I have repeated so many times, and Galant306m is well aware of...the tuning is what will make this setup work. Running low compression of 9:1 or lower gives the "average" builder/tuner a larger safety window with tuning, when you run the higher compression the saftey window is much smaller (ie screw up tuning and detonation will kill the engine quickly).

**Galant306m** · 12-05-2009, 04:45 PM

Ill get it running soon enough (spring) Im no rush as of this point since i will no be driving the thing this winter at all so there is really no point, i can take my time get everything working well and then get it running. I dont for see having a problem and frankly like i have said earlier if i wanted lower compression i would have went with it when i had the engine apart, the fact of the matter is i wanted to be able to drive the car around when i have it out and not be restricted on the motor to only make power during boost. With the setup i have now i will be able to drive it and not have to spool up the turbo after every light (probably will though) but thats the thing. Also i have another vehicle so the car isnt going to see anymore bad weather. Only one that should be worrying about my engine is me and i have it under control as of this moment.