60k miles - $1500 !!

[nystreetracing]

Damn Dan, they didnt even use some vasoline before they bent you over. I feel for you! =(

[FinalLast]

I think what manybrews said makes sense..

i can understand it a bit more now..

from a tech's point of view.

[manybrews]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HeadAche)</div><div class='quotemain'>Damn thats why i dont go to the dealership for nothing, they're always trying to stick it to ya...</div>
does anyone here even LOOK at the competitive prices anymore?
my dealer is cheaper than 75 percent of the "independants" out there for standard things like maintenence, oil changes, brake jobs, etc.



you guys just dont seem to understand sometimes.


Lets take a trannie overhaul, for example. Lets say you go to AAMCO (and if you do, i feel sorry for you), and they will charge you 1500 bucks for a "rebuild".
the labor time theyre charging is the same. their labor rate may be a little less, but not by much anymore. However, where they REALLY cut corners is in the unbelievably cheap componants and parts theyre using to rebuild your trannies. Trust me when I say the parts ARENT coming from mitsu, or even any company youve ever heard of. They usually come from brazil or china, and are of incredibly low quality.
add to that the fact that the guys from AAMCO dont work on mitsus all day long, and therefor arent anywhere near as familiar with them as they should be.
Obviously, this is generalized. But i EASILY work on 3 cars a month that have gone to "independant" shops for "cheaper" work, and end up costing the owner 2 to 3 times as much as it should have.

[Auto-9]

My dealership charges a flat rate of 32 bucks an hour. No more, no less, doesn't matter what work is being done. Which sounds great and all, but they're completely incompetent. A clueless non-ASE certified customer like me can spot their mistakes. Guess there's only 3 possibilities with Mitsubishi...either it's expensive and it's done right, it's cheap and it's done wrong, or it's expensive and it's done wrong.

[Los]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(manybrews)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HeadAche)</div><div class='quotemain'>Damn thats why i dont go to the dealership for nothing, they're always trying to stick it to ya...</div>
does anyone here even LOOK at the competitive prices anymore?
my dealer is cheaper than 75 percent of the "independants" out there for standard things like maintenence, oil changes, brake jobs, etc.



you guys just dont seem to understand sometimes.


Lets take a trannie overhaul, for example. Lets say you go to AAMCO (and if you do, i feel sorry for you), and they will charge you 1500 bucks for a "rebuild".
the labor time theyre charging is the same. their labor rate may be a little less, but not by much anymore. However, where they REALLY cut corners is in the unbelievably cheap componants and parts theyre using to rebuild your trannies. Trust me when I say the parts ARENT coming from mitsu, or even any company youve ever heard of. They usually come from brazil or china, and are of incredibly low quality.
add to that the fact that the guys from AAMCO dont work on mitsus all day long, and therefor arent anywhere near as familiar with them as they should be.
Obviously, this is generalized. But i EASILY work on 3 cars a month that have gone to "independant" shops for "cheaper" work, and end up costing the owner 2 to 3 times as much as it should have.</div>


I agree for the most,..... if you wanna get it done right the first time, I would probably go to the dealer. Especially for some major work. I would trust my dealer more than any other independent. I would rather pay a little more to get it done right then save some money and have problems.

Just my 2 cents

[Stewi]

DUDE $87 for spark plugs ???? Thats a little bit pricey. And it doesnt take that long to change them either. 1 hour tops.

[Elwenil]

Ok, one thing I see wrong, and I don't think anyone has stated this yet. If they have, smack me. The labor time estimate books are for just that, ESTIMATES! These are for when someone calls and asks how much it would be to have something fixed, they can give you a reasonable estimate of the time and money involved. These books are put out by all car manufacturers for use in their dealership's service department. They are also put out by other publishers for use in independant service garages. I know this because I was a Parts Manager and when the Service Manager was off sick, or on vacation, I had to take over. On every service ticket, be it on paper or on computer there is supposed to be where the mechanic clocked in to start on the car, and then clocked out when finished, went to lunch, waited for parts, etc. This is where your labor charge is supposed to come from. NOT from the time estimate manual. You have the right in most if not all states to see the record of when the mechanic clocked in and out on your car repair order. If they can't show you this, then call the manufacturer and report this to them, and do business elsewhere. You can bet they don't do this to everyone. For example, did you know that the dealer has to be paid by the manufacturer for all warranty repairs? There are strict guidelines as to what parts and how much time it takes to do specific repairs. If you exceed the guidelines without a damn good explanation, the manufacturer will reject the warranty claim and the dealer eats the cost. You think the dealer does this little time game with the factory? I think not, and they shouldn't do it to anyone. I would raise hell if this happened to me. The manufacturers can't stand for a dealer to give them a bad name, and will normally listen eagerly to these kinds of complaints. Another thing, any shop that charges $70 or so for labor should be burnt to the ground, because you can bet your life that the mechanics don't see no where near half that per hour. Ok, I need a beer now...
Later...

[Dominicano]

i think elwenil, has laid this post to a rest. Finally a person who worked at a dealership willing to tell the truth.

I knew something smelled fishy.

[VIO]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Elwenil)</div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, one thing I see wrong, and I don't think anyone has stated this yet. Â*If they have, smack me. Â*The labor time estimate books are for just that, ESTIMATES! Â*These are for when someone calls and asks how much it would be to have something fixed, they can give you a reasonable estimate of the time and money involved. Â*These books are put out by all car manufacturers for use in their dealership's service department. Â*They are also put out by other publishers for use in independant service garages. Â*I know this because I was a Parts Manager and when the Service Manager was off sick, or on vacation, I had to take over. Â*On every service ticket, be it on paper or on computer there is supposed to be where the mechanic clocked in to start on the car, and then clocked out when finished, went to lunch, waited for parts, etc. Â*This is where your labor charge is supposed to come from. Â*NOT from the time estimate manual. Â*You have the right in most if not all states to see the record of when the mechanic clocked in and out on your car repair order. Â*If they can't show you this, then call the manufacturer and report this to them, and do business elsewhere. Â*You can bet they don't do this to everyone. Â*For example, did you know that the dealer has to be paid by the manufacturer for all warranty repairs? Â*There are strict guidelines as to what parts and how much time it takes to do specific repairs. Â*If you exceed the guidelines without a damn good explanation, the manufacturer will reject the warranty claim and the dealer eats the cost. Â*You think the dealer does this little time game with the factory? Â*I think not, and they shouldn't do it to anyone. Â*I would raise hell if this happened to me. Â*The manufacturers can't stand for a dealer to give them a bad name, and will normally listen eagerly to these kinds of complaints. Â*Another thing, any shop that charges $70 or so for labor should be burnt to the ground, because you can bet your life that the mechanics don't see no where near half that per hour. Â*Ok, I need a beer now...
Later...</div>

i agree. i spoke to my brother about this (he used to be a service manager at a couple of ford dealerships and a couple of bmw dealerships) and his take on the situation was the same. an estimate is an estimate and any legitimate shop will charge you only for actual work not for an over inflated estimate. to charge 10 hours for 7 hours of work is unethical and could even be considered fraud depending upon your state's laws.

[manybrews]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Elwenil)</div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, one thing I see wrong, and I don't think anyone has stated this yet. Â*If they have, smack me. Â*The labor time estimate books are for just that, ESTIMATES! Â*These are for when someone calls and asks how much it would be to have something fixed, they can give you a reasonable estimate of the time and money involved. Â*These books are put out by all car manufacturers for use in their dealership's service department. Â*They are also put out by other publishers for use in independant service garages. Â*I know this because I was a Parts Manager and when the Service Manager was off sick, or on vacation, I had to take over. Â*On every service ticket, be it on paper or on computer there is supposed to be where the mechanic clocked in to start on the car, and then clocked out when finished, went to lunch, waited for parts, etc. Â*This is where your labor charge is supposed to come from. Â*NOT from the time estimate manual. Â*You have the right in most if not all states to see the record of when the mechanic clocked in and out on your car repair order. Â*If they can't show you this, then call the manufacturer and report this to them, and do business elsewhere.</div>

Wrong.
the manufacturer do have their own estimate times, no doubt about it.. which are usually 20 to 40 percent lower than the INDEPENDANT shops times (like alldata, mitchell, motor, etc).
Those times are for warranty only, and they are definatly criminal. the domestics are the worst, the europeans are the best. and Mitsu (like all companies) will pay above and beyond those numbers if there is reason to... but it has to be a good reason, not just "the rookie tech was slow".



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
You can bet they don't do this to everyone. Â*For example, did you know that the dealer has to be paid by the manufacturer for all warranty repairs?</div>
umm. of course.
did you think the dealers actually paid for that out of pocket?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
There are strict guidelines as to what parts and how much time it takes to do specific repairs. Â*If you exceed the guidelines without a damn good explanation, the manufacturer will reject the warranty claim and the dealer eats the cost. Â*You think the dealer does this little time game with the factory?</div>


you havent been around dealers much if you think that "time games" arent played with the manufacturers.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
Â*I think not, and they shouldn't do it to anyone. Â*I would raise hell if this happened to me. Â*The manufacturers can't stand for a dealer to give them a bad name, and will normally listen eagerly to these kinds of complaints.</div>

what is with everyone here?
does no one have a clue as to how the world works or something?
fixing cars is BASED ON PRODUCTION. to be good, you need to be fast. and that means BEATING the estimated time.
if car repairs werent based on production, the tech would actually LOSE money for being fast, which is total and utter bullshit.

if you all dont like it, I suggest you take up auto repair and see how well you fair in your first several years.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
Â*Another thing, any shop that charges $70 or so for labor should be burnt to the ground, because you can bet your life that the mechanics don't see no where near half that per hour. Â*Ok, I need a beer now...
Later...</div>

okay, what planet are you from? I havent seen ANY repair shop, whether its a dealer or independant that charges less than 75 bucks per hour in years. we charge 90. and we're on the low side.

[manybrews]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dominicano)</div><div class='quotemain'> i think elwenil, has laid this post to a rest. Â*Finally a person who worked at a dealership willing to tell the truth. Â*

I knew something smelled fishy.</div>
right..
ive been lying to you.


whatever. you people havent a clue sometimes.

[TITAN]

THE Independant one I go to charges about $50/hr. my dealer RAPES me at $120/hr

[djScript]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(manybrews)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dominicano)</div><div class='quotemain'> i think elwenil, has laid this post to a rest. Â*Finally a person who worked at a dealership willing to tell the truth. Â*

I knew something smelled fishy.</div>
right..
ive been lying to you.


whatever. you people havent a clue sometimes.</div>

everyone knows going to the dealership will cost you an arm and a leg. whether they do good or shitty work or wether "fixing cars is BASED ON PRODUCTION" or wether "to be good, you need to be fast" are beside the point. fact is -- they're phucking expensive. period. could be because they have tons of operating expenses. maybe they need to fire some of those useless dumb "service advisors" who phucking robbed me $80 last wednesday! :evil:

[Elwenil]

I think you missed my point, manybrews. I'm not saying that you are wrong, just that the dealers are not supposed to do it that way. At least not a Chrysler dealer. I've read the Chrysler Dealer Operations Manual quite a few times and it is supposed to be done as I stated it. Yes, it's true that if you tell someone that it's going to take and hour to change their radiator cap and they agree to it, and it only takes 5 minutes, then you are money ahead. My point is that to use the time estimate manual for the labor charging is wrong. Sure, it may cost X number of dollars to change your water pump, but if the water pump is being changed while other repairs are being done that need the water pump removed anyway, then you shouldn't have to pay the same as if it was being done seperately. Would you want someone to charge you the time estimate for each and every single part seperately when they are doing a complete rebuild? That's like charging you labor to replace a hubcap when they are already charging you for a tire rotation. The deal about playing with the time on warranty repairs might work for some manufacturers, but it didn't with Chrysler. You either did it in the time allotted, or you didn't get paid for the wasted time. If you complained then they suggested more technician training. Also, our labor rate in the mid 90's was $55 per hour, and I think it is gone up to $60 since I left. Must be the difference in location, but I doubt the quality of the work could be any better, so why pay it?And as for me me not being around a dealership much, I was a Parts Manager for about 3 years and I have the plaques, Mopar seminar manuals, and test scores to prove it. I don't want to get into a typing argument or anything, and I'm sorry if I took this the wrong way, but I felt I must defend my position on this matter.
Yours in truth,
Elwenil

[BlueESV6]

Went to my dealer in Savannah today to get a run down on the cost of the 60K tune up.

$898 and included changing the plugs, belt, flush tranny, change oil and some other stuff. I asked about including the plug wires and the tech said it included changing the coil packs. I did not think the V6 had coil packs but he stated it did?. Anyway, the water pump was recommended as an item to change but the labor to change it was NOT included (since engine torn apart already). Only the price of the w.pump would be charged.

So basically, they said around $1200 for the works...

An interesting side note... I went to the parts department and asked the guy to look up the part number for the cali spec timing belt. ONLY ONE timing belt came up.... I explained to him the manual stated the timing belt change was recommended at 100K for the cali spec engines and 60K for the fed spec engines (V6). He said the belt was the same no matter which engine?!?!

I asked the service guy and he gave me a schpeel about the water based solvent on the timing belt would break down in the moist S. GA. climate and needed to be changed at 60K. He obviously has never been to Northern California which is VERY moist and wet all the time!!!

I asked him if the cali spec car had a timing belt which broke under the 100K limit if that would be covered... he said no matter what you have the 60K limit was it. Beyond that is on the owner....

Something seems fishy here..... :? :? :?

[BXNYMitsu01]

Dealerships are just into making money like any other business, however, charging their customers at high rates will make their customers look elsewhere.

[manybrews]

I think you missed my point, manybrews. I'm not saying that you are wrong, just that the dealers are not supposed to do it that way. At least not a Chrysler dealer. I've read the Chrysler Dealer Operations Manual quite a few times and it is supposed to be done as I stated it. Yes, it's true that if you tell someone that it's going to take and hour to change their radiator cap and they agree to it, and it only takes 5 minutes, then you are money ahead. My point is that to use the time estimate manual for the labor charging is wrong.

absolutly not.
how do the little independant shops charge? by using the exact same mitchell or motor manuals we have. just because a person can do it faster in no way means that we should charge less. what about when a person takes longer to do the job? should we charge more?
I mean, lets put it in perspective here. when I first started, it would take me anywhere from 4 to 5 hours to replace a timing belt on an Eclipse turbo. the book time is 3.6 ( if I remember correctly). Now i can do it in 2 hours.
does that mean that I should have charged extra back then? that I should have only charged 3.6 when it took me exactly 3.6? that I should charge less now because Im really good at the job?
no. it means that the 3.6 is considered an average, calculated by other independant firms. and if im good at it, the benefit is to me. the benefit to the customer is that they dont have to pay the 5 hours it takes some mechanics to do the same job.

Sure, it may cost X number of dollars to change your water pump, but if the water pump is being changed while other repairs are being done that need the water pump removed anyway, then you shouldn't have to pay the same as if it was being done seperately.

that i agree with. In fact, I dont remember arguing that point at all.
when we do a water pump, we usually charge a few extra bucks, as it takes a few extra minutes. but I dont say charge double, as that would be criminal.

Would you want someone to charge you the time estimate for each and every single part seperately when they are doing a complete rebuild? That's like charging you labor to replace a hubcap when they are already charging you for a tire rotation. The deal about playing with the time on warranty repairs might work for some manufacturers, but it didn't with Chrysler.

I deal with chrysler time (or should say dealt) during the mid 90's, when mitsu made the awful decision to use the 420a engine in our cars. and they werent really that picky, provided you had even a CLOSE clock time.

You either did it in the time allotted, or you didn't get paid for the wasted time. If you complained then they suggested more technician training. Also, our labor rate in the mid 90's was $55 per hour, and I think it is gone up to $60 since I left.

man, when I started in 92, it was already at 69 bucks an hour. its now 90. and that is definatly at the low end of the spectrum where I live.

Must be the difference in location, but I doubt the quality of the work could be any better, so why pay it?

because thats what happens when you live in a big city. and if you DONT think the quality of work is different, try going to a local-yokel mitsu dealer in the middle of nowhere, and see how good they are. when they only work on 1 or 2 cars a day, they cant develope any experience, nor do they often see the "difficult" cars.
Hell, Ive had to work on cars SPECIFICALLY shipped to me from 4 other states! im NOT making that up. Basically because theyre small time dealers, and they dont have the background nor experience to deal with some of the "super" problems that can crop up.

And as for me me not being around a dealership much, I was a Parts Manager for about 3 years and I have the plaques, Mopar seminar manuals, and test scores to prove it. I don't want to get into a typing argument or anything, and I'm sorry if I took this the wrong way, but I felt I must defend my position on this matter.
Yours in truth,
Elwenil

Thats all fine and dandy, as Im not trying to start anything either. but ive worked for a dealership for nearly 12 years now, and Ive seen everything there is to see in this profession, from sales to service to parts. I myself am a foreman of the largest dealer in my state (which I prefer to keep private), so i am pretty well established in this career.

[Lilginny]

I'm not surprised, mine cost $1250 so i feel your pain

[CT_GalantV6]

First: Dealers need to make money like any biz. My company (computer biz) charges $85/hr +a $75 Travel fee + cost of any parts.

Second: $1500 for a 60k service is crazy. Unless you drive only 5000 miles a year. It would be 12 years before you needed that service in which case spending $1500 doesn't seem to bad. Thats only $125 a year you need to save for the service. But if your someone like me who put on 35k miles in the first year of ownership, well to spend $20,000 on a car and then to have to spend another $1500 after 2 years seems a bit pricey.

So heres what I did, being about 34 years old and having delt with many cars. I just flat out drove it until 80k miles (sometimes hard and sometimes normal), at that point, I had the dealer I bought it from do the timming belt, accesory belts, and new spark plugs. Thats it, cost was $575 with tax out the door. Which I thought was completely reasonable.

Wouldn't you know, the so called trained professional that did my timming belt couldn't even put on the bracket that holds a heater core hose in place on right side up (the hook that the hose goes in was on the top side of the bar and the hose just hanging loose). It was installed upside down, I reinstalled it correctly in about five minutes. It pissed me off, but I didn't complain, it simply wasn't worth my time.

I now have 140k miles on my G and guess what, all is well. IMO, the 60k mile service (with the exception of timming belt, even though I did mine at 80k) is a total rip off. Again, for someone like me who puts on 20k-35k miles a year.

I not trying to TELL anyone to not get the 60k service if they feel they want or need it. Don't get me wrong, I want my car running and performing correctly always, but at dealer prices you are still not garanteed top notch workmanship and I just feel its NOT neccessary (other than the timming belt).