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  1. #1

    Spyder cam position sensor?

    I want to ditch the distributor and go with coils. Is it possible to get the following parts and do the turbo ecu swap that the spyders do?

    Parts list:
    Cam pos sensor
    Sensor housing (aluminum peice that bolts where dist is)
    The peice that bolts to the end of the cam that the cam sensor reads
    and the bolt that holds it to the cam
    Power transistor
    Coils

    I don't want to go dohc swap just yet. I can get these parts new for less than
    100 and don't have to crack open the motor. Has anyone done it?

  2. #2
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    im not too sure but it should be quite possible... from my understanding, everything but what you just listed is identical... oh, and the ecu... so your wanting to trade up to the 4g64 spyder ecu? this should also set timing to monitor knock w a sensor correct? someone with a little more expertise help me out, because i've been wondering about this as well...
    Diamond Star Motors - Turning ordinary people into mechanics since 1989.


  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by silver_beast98
    so your wanting to trade up to the 4g64 spyder ecu? this should also set timing to monitor knock w a sensor correct? someone with a little more expertise help me out, because i've been wondering about this as well...

    No, I want to switch over to the 4g63 turbo ecu. The guys with spyders have it easy since they already run coil packs rather than the dist. we have. All they have to do is add the knock sensor and do some rewiring and they are good to go with the turbo ecu swap....as found here: http://home.roadrunner.com/~chadnmichelle/ecuswap.htm

  4. #4
    Senior Moderator DOHCstunr's Avatar
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    you woudl need the plug for the valve cover at the cam end where the distributor woudl go, shoudl be an oem spyder part.

    then you need the spyder cam gear, timing sprocket, and cam angle sensor.

    unfortunately there are no mounting hols for the cas pickup on the head. you woudl have to
    precisely locate the exact placement of the cas.... and then perfectly predrill at the perfect angle, then tap it perfectly plumb and level. then hope that without any shims the cas lines up perfectly... absolutely perfectly with the cam gear timing wheel.
    if it touches it at all.... it will destroy the sensor and your car will die.
    if its not in the perfect spot..... your timing will be completely off. even if its jsut a few mm off where it should be.


    you might just want to get a head off a spyder.....

    or just get the head off a gst.
    since you have the head off anyways.
    ______________________________

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by DOHCstunr
    you woudl need the plug for the valve cover at the cam end where the distributor woudl go, shoudl be an oem spyder part.

    then you need the spyder cam gear, timing sprocket, and cam angle sensor.

    unfortunately there are no mounting hols for the cas pickup on the head. you woudl have to
    precisely locate the exact placement of the cas.... and then perfectly predrill at the perfect angle, then tap it perfectly plumb and level. then hope that without any shims the cas lines up perfectly... absolutely perfectly with the cam gear timing wheel.
    if it touches it at all.... it will destroy the sensor and your car will die.
    if its not in the perfect spot..... your timing will be completely off. even if its jsut a few mm off where it should be.


    you might just want to get a head off a spyder.....

    or just get the head off a gst.
    since you have the head off anyways.
    I have looked it up in CAPS. There is a housing that holds the cas and bolts to where our distributor is. Then there is a peice that bolts onto the end of the cam and it revolves in that housing. We both share the same crank angle sensor. I am not sure what sensor you are talking about.

  6. #6
    here are some screen shots from CAPS

    CAS housing


    Peice that bolts to end of cam

    [/img]

    Crank sensor


    I have checked CAPS to see if there is a difference in cams....galants and spyders have the same cams, so the threads must be there.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by DOHCstunr
    you woudl need the plug for the valve cover at the cam end where the distributor woudl go, shoudl be an oem spyder part.

    then you need the spyder cam gear, timing sprocket, and cam angle sensor.

    unfortunately there are no mounting hols for the cas pickup on the head. you woudl have to
    precisely locate the exact placement of the cas.... and then perfectly predrill at the perfect angle, then tap it perfectly plumb and level. then hope that without any shims the cas lines up perfectly... absolutely perfectly with the cam gear timing wheel.
    if it touches it at all.... it will destroy the sensor and your car will die.
    if its not in the perfect spot..... your timing will be completely off. even if its jsut a few mm off where it should be.


    you might just want to get a head off a spyder.....

    or just get the head off a gst.
    since you have the head off anyways.
    Upon checking out CAPS yet again, I think you are getting confused with the DOHC spyder. They have the different cam position sensor, intake cam gear...etc. The 2.4l SOHC Spyder shares the same cam, cam gear, crank sensor....etc. The only difference is they have CAS and coils to our distributor.

  8. #8

  9. #9
    Senior Moderator DOHCstunr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom04841
    Quote Originally Posted by DOHCstunr
    you woudl need the plug for the valve cover at the cam end where the distributor woudl go, shoudl be an oem spyder part.

    then you need the spyder cam gear, timing sprocket, and cam angle sensor.

    unfortunately there are no mounting hols for the cas pickup on the head. you woudl have to
    precisely locate the exact placement of the cas.... and then perfectly predrill at the perfect angle, then tap it perfectly plumb and level. then hope that without any shims the cas lines up perfectly... absolutely perfectly with the cam gear timing wheel.
    if it touches it at all.... it will destroy the sensor and your car will die.
    if its not in the perfect spot..... your timing will be completely off. even if its jsut a few mm off where it should be.


    you might just want to get a head off a spyder.....

    or just get the head off a gst.
    since you have the head off anyways.
    Upon checking out CAPS yet again, I think you are getting confused with the DOHC spyder. They have the different cam position sensor, intake cam gear...etc. The 2.4l SOHC Spyder shares the same cam, cam gear, crank sensor....etc. The only difference is they have CAS and coils to our distributor.
    unless you have a 94 or 95 galant
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  10. #10
    I have a 96, so do you think this would work?

  11. #11
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    well if you just want the coil ignition, why do you want the gst ecu?? just curious about exactly what your plans are, as i've wondered about the same stuff and wether it would help out if i were to turbo my sohc...
    Diamond Star Motors - Turning ordinary people into mechanics since 1989.


  12. #12
    I went from driving a fully built 1g TSI awd (400+ hp) to my current stock 7G. I had to sell my 1g to fund my recent wedding.

    I plan on going turbo. But I'm not sure if i want to go DOHC or not. My car has an automatic trans, so i don't plan on going all out because I have no intension of swapping for the manual trans. I am just looking to get a little more power.

    I would be completely happy right around the 200 hp mark.

    I know I could do a ghetto setup and run 450cc with resistor box and a safc (which I already have) but I want it to be reliable and would like to have the knock sensor for added security. One way around that would be to run water injection. That would pretty much eliminate any chance of knock. I only want to run 8 psi. I am sure w/i would be overkill, but again looking for "reliability".

    So , with my meager goals, do you guys think I should just go with the 450/safc/water injection route, or do the ecu swap

  13. #13
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    somebody else should have a little more insight on this but im fairly sure they get them up to 200hp with the distributor setup and an egt guage for monitoring how the engine's running no problem... while we're on the subject of tuning and predetination, it is my understanding that since gst's have electronic ignition, they have a multidementional map for ignition and fuel. the way a safc works is by taping into the maf signal and tricking the ecu into seeing more or less air than what is actually being taken in... since the ecu see's less air, it adjusts fuel how it thinks is needed... byproduct is our allowance to richen or lean out the mixture... but, on the gst ecu, since ignition is also on the map, fooling with the maf signal much can cause predetination or retardation depending on wether you lean or richen (respectively) the mixture...

    but if you are using stock injectors you should only have to use it for very fine tuning and i dont think it would mess up your timing too much... also i would suggest an adjustable fpr to help out...

    so understanding the ways of an safc has made me very wary of any afc or even maftrans, but on our setups it should be no problem, as im fairly sure the ecu has no way to adjust spark timing...

    lots of pros and cons to factor in...
    Diamond Star Motors - Turning ordinary people into mechanics since 1989.


  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by tom04841
    I went from driving a fully built 1g TSI awd (400+ hp) to my current stock 7G. I had to sell my 1g to fund my recent wedding.

    I plan on going turbo. But I'm not sure if i want to go DOHC or not. My car has an automatic trans, so i don't plan on going all out because I have no intension of swapping for the manual trans. I am just looking to get a little more power.

    I would be completely happy right around the 200 hp mark.

    I know I could do a ghetto setup and run 450cc with resistor box and a safc (which I already have) but I want it to be reliable and would like to have the knock sensor for added security. One way around that would be to run water injection. That would pretty much eliminate any chance of knock. I only want to run 8 psi. I am sure w/i would be overkill, but again looking for "reliability".



    So , with my meager goals, do you guys think I should just go with the 450/safc/water injection route, or do the ecu swap
    I can tell you from experience that a stock 4g64 with 450cc injectors and a resistor pack running a 16g with FMIC and 3" turboback will safely put you around 200 whp. The only advice I have is to sell the safc and pick up a gm maft setup. I don't remember the exact reason but the SAFC does not work properly with the galant ecu. Also the MAFT will allow you to run a blow through setup which means you won't have to relocate the lower radiator hose. Water injection is not really needed unless you plan on running without an intercooler which isn't a good idea on a street car. I had absolutely zero problems running 8-10psi like that and although I never got dynoed I know by comparison to others that did get dynoed I was running very close to if not a little over 200 to the wheels.


    222whp/250wtq

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by silver_beast98
    somebody else should have a little more insight on this but im fairly sure they get them up to 200hp with the distributor setup and an egt guage for monitoring how the engine's running no problem... while we're on the subject of tuning and predetination, it is my understanding that since gst's have electronic ignition, they have a multidementional map for ignition and fuel. the way a safc works is by taping into the maf signal and tricking the ecu into seeing more or less air than what is actually being taken in... since the ecu see's less air, it adjusts fuel how it thinks is needed... byproduct is our allowance to richen or lean out the mixture... but, on the gst ecu, since ignition is also on the map, fooling with the maf signal much can cause predetination or retardation depending on wether you lean or richen (respectively) the mixture...

    but if you are using stock injectors you should only have to use it for very fine tuning and i dont think it would mess up your timing too much... also i would suggest an adjustable fpr to help out...

    so understanding the ways of an safc has made me very wary of any afc or even maftrans, but on our setups it should be no problem, as im fairly sure the ecu has no way to adjust spark timing...

    lots of pros and cons to factor in...
    FPR isn't needed unless you upgrade fuel pumps to a 255lph, even the 190 works fine on the stock fpr. And you can't run a turbo on stock injectors they are too small so you will need a way to compensate for the 450's. Also a MAFT is a completely different tuning tool that an SAFC and is much more reliable. It utilizes a completely different type of mass airflow sensor which is capable of measuring much greater amounts of air than stock so it doesn't "trick" the ecu into anything. The gen 2 and pro also have a wideband tracking feature that allows you to set a specific ratio and then the MAFT will monitor your a/f ratios at wot and automatically correct to your specific ration. On top of that most wideband o2 sensors have a switchable narrowband feature that allows the wideband to mimic the stock o2 sensor and you can set your closed loop a/f ratio to something other than 14.7:1 which is lean for a turbo setup.

    Please don't try to give advice if you haven't done the research as no one wants to be told wrong information that could end up costing them a lot of money.


    222whp/250wtq

  16. #16
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    first off i want to start by saying i have done research to no end.. my post count does not show it because i always chose to search instead of asking questions... i didnt feel like getting flamed... also a few misunderstandings...

    no an fpr is not necessary but its always better to have a boost refrencing fpr with a turbo setup because it raises pressure in a 1:1 ratio with your boost. can also help out in the case of using a safc with a gst ecu because you can lower your base pressure and not have to use safc correction as much, which does (on gst ecu's) affect spark timing. trust me i know this, because my best friend has a gst with 550's and blew it up because he tried to adjust it using only a safc and gave it too much correction resulting in extreme predetination.

    also when i said "stock" injectors i was refering to stock gst 450's.

    Also, i will not lie, i have not had experience with a maft personally, but if it only plugs into and replaces our maf, then its not so different. more reliable, yes. better than an safc, yes. but the only thing it can do is tell the ecu it's getting more or less air than it actually is. which is only a way to trick an ecu, causing it to dump more or less fuel. like i said, this should be perfectly ok since our ecu cannot adjust our spark timing, and it should also be ok if you run a gst ecu with stock 450 injectors, but if you run anything much larger (ex. 650's, or even 550's in some cases) you will run into problems with ignition timing..

    also, i am aware of the gen 2's wideband monitoring, but that is also just a way to trick the ecu adjusted in real time.. also aware of the selectable narrowband switching point feature of most widebands, but it's also just a way to trick an ecu. while it does it in a different way, what it does is send the voltage that our stock o2 sensors send at 14.7:1 at whatever ratio you set, causing the ecu to think it's running a perfect 14.7:1 at whatever ratio you set.

    anyways, im sure he will be fine with the maft and a good wideband, just want you to understand how it works and know that i would not give info without knowledge on the subject..

    also, i would love to hear about your setup laxin.. im planning on turboing my 7g as soon as the money permits, and i would like to see how everyone did theirs.
    Diamond Star Motors - Turning ordinary people into mechanics since 1989.


  17. #17
    Wasn't trying to flame at all, just wanted to make sure there wasn't any misinformation. Unless I made a mistake when i was looking up part #s we actually do have a 1:1 referencing fpr stock. Also the MAFT scales the air input to the ecu just to keep it within the proper parameters so you don't hit fuel cut so in theory what you are saying is correct but it's a little more complicated than that. The SAFC uses the stock MAS signal and then tells the ecu there is more air entering the engine so it needs to add fuel which is exactly what you are talking about but with the maft since it uses a gm sensor it scales the actual airflow reading first and then adds airflow to increase fuel. Let me know if that doesn't make much sense. I can say that I have never once hit fuel cut because of too much boost and have never had any issues running too lean either. In fact, anyone that has seen my car in person can vouch for just how pig rich I have it running.

    I also have a thread in the turbo section from when I first installed everything and I will be updating it sometime this week when I finish up my current turbo install.


    222whp/250wtq

  18. #18
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    well its good to have each other in check because it is easy to be misinformed. i was unaware we had a referencing fpr but i never looked it up. that part i just heard we didnt and assumed it was true since we weren't turbo, but it does have a vaccuum line to the mani so i guess it may be. that makes sense, but i dont exactly understand how you can add the same amount of fuel with them both and one wont cut and the other will. but hell, if it works it works. and for the setup he and i both want, im sure it's just fine. also, be sure you dont run too rich, because as im sure you already know, too rich isn't good either.

    not trying in any way to undermine your or anyone else's inteligence btw. cant wait to read up on your update.. by the way, what wideband are you running? Im looking at the zeitronix unit with lcd display for a/f, lambda, egt, and an auxilary input all wrapped into one. you should check it out sometime, its pretty pimp!
    Diamond Star Motors - Turning ordinary people into mechanics since 1989.


  19. #19
    Senior Moderator DOHCstunr's Avatar
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    lets stay on topic

    lest the warnings start getting handed out like christmas cards
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  20. #20
    My apologies. As I was saying, OP you shouldn't have any issues staying with the distributor but if you have any further questions feel free to pm me.


    222whp/250wtq

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